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 Post subject: Re: Players vs. Owners 2021/22 off season thread
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 12:54 am 
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thebull wrote:
HeyNowHK wrote:
LTKfRGM wrote:

Owners could use a shortened season to push their expanded playoffs model as an experiment.

Going back into history, but 1981 NEEDED bigger expanded playoffs but only kind of had them and the team with the best record in baseball didn't make the playoffs because the split season winners got in.

So, a 100-110 game season might benefit the owners in several ways. Only have to pay the players 65% of their salary, 2 months of playing hardball in the negotiations AND they get their expanded playoffs for at least one year to try to sell it to the fans and everyone.

They can play no games and save even more money…


Then they won’t get their TV and ticket revenue.

Hey nothing gets by you.


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 Post subject: Re: Players vs. Owners 2021/22 off season thread
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:28 am 
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LTKfRGM wrote:
Owners could use a shortened season to push their expanded playoffs model as an experiment.


Didn't they...just do that two years ago?


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 Post subject: Re: Players vs. Owners 2021/22 off season thread
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:34 am 
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LTKfRGM wrote:
HeyNowHK wrote:
I was actually serious. It was who I think would be good for the game, not who I think the owners will choose.


It's an interesting idea, but commish has become such a money and dealing with billionaires and the business side of things position. I rarely get the feeling that commissioners LOVE the game and not just recently but going back to when I was a kid. I get they LOVE the business behind the game.


I do think Bud was actually a legit baseball fan despite the '94 disaster and his owner position (though he mainly became an owner because he wanted a MLB team in Milwaukee in the first place), he's about as much of one as you're ever going to realistically get in the commissioner role nowadays, especially when pretty much all commissioners have to have a law or business background to deal with CBA and business negotiations. Silver, Bettman and Manfred were all lawyers and Goodell did a lot of financial/business negotiating for the NFL before becoming commissoner.


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 Post subject: Re: Players vs. Owners 2021/22 off season thread
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:55 am 
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I agree that there is a strong impetus on both sides to get a deal done. Players won't get paid. Owners lose the TV, attendance, concessions (HUGE markup on food and beverages at the ballpark), and most likely in-stadium advertising revenue.

Then, there is to quote Sandy, the "bad optics" of a work stoppage in these times.

All of these are good, fact-based, rational arguments for getting this behind them. But, this is MLB. Both sides can almost be counted on to make bad decisions.

I am not optimistic (duh).

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 Post subject: Re: Players vs. Owners 2021/22 off season thread
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:03 am 
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AllWrightNow wrote:
LTKfRGM wrote:
HeyNowHK wrote:
I was actually serious. It was who I think would be good for the game, not who I think the owners will choose.


It's an interesting idea, but commish has become such a money and dealing with billionaires and the business side of things position. I rarely get the feeling that commissioners LOVE the game and not just recently but going back to when I was a kid. I get they LOVE the business behind the game.


I do think Bud was actually a legit baseball fan despite the '94 disaster and his owner position (though he mainly became an owner because he wanted a MLB team in Milwaukee in the first place), he's about as much of one as you're ever going to realistically get in the commissioner role nowadays, especially when pretty much all commissioners have to have a law or business background to deal with CBA and business negotiations. Silver, Bettman and Manfred were all lawyers and Goodell did a lot of financial/business negotiating for the NFL before becoming commissoner.

Disagree that the leader has to be an atty. Having leadership qualities and pushing the sport onto the right path is more important. There are plenty of attorneys who work in the league office. Don’t worry. The commissioner should be someone who understands the game and the league in proper context, it’s significance, its history, and knows where it should go and should be. And that person should be a strong communicator and advocate.

What it shouldn’t be is simply a representative of the 30 owners, which is what it is now. And the reason there are these horrendous labor interruptions and bad will each time the cba expires.


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 Post subject: Re: Players vs. Owners 2021/22 off season thread
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:06 am 
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You understand the Commissioner off Baseball works solely for the owners, right?

But that said, Manfred is the worst. He has absolutely no feel for the game. He's just as qualified to be Commissioner of Shoes.


8)

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 Post subject: Re: Players vs. Owners 2021/22 off season thread
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:13 pm 
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HeyNowHK wrote:
Disagree that the leader has to be an atty. Having leadership qualities and pushing the sport onto the right path is more important. There are plenty of attorneys who work in the league office. Don’t worry. The commissioner should be someone who understands the game and the league in proper context, it’s significance, its history, and knows where it should go and should be. And that person should be a strong communicator and advocate.

What it shouldn’t be is simply a representative of the 30 owners, which is what it is now. And the reason there are these horrendous labor interruptions and bad will each time the cba expires.


You may not feel that way but the owners do. Before Manfred, Silver and Bettman the NFL had Tagliabue and the NBA had Stern, also both lawyers. You have to go back to Bart Giamatti to find the last commissioner in any sport that even comes close to a total non lawyer/businessman profile.

We can both say what the commissioner ‘should’ represent but how does that happen in practice? When the owners have sole authority to hire and fire a commissioner, of course they’re generally gonna get someone who can best represent their interests.


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 Post subject: Re: Players vs. Owners 2021/22 off season thread
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:52 pm 
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AllWrightNow wrote:
LTKfRGM wrote:
Owners could use a shortened season to push their expanded playoffs model as an experiment.


Didn't they...just do that two years ago?


True, and also the DH experiment. 2020 was obviously a very different circumstance, but also kind of a preview for what's to come this year, I expect. In 2020, the owners won by waiting, at least, in some ways. That's what I expect them to do this year too.

2020 was still a rough year for them with no ticket sales. A rough year for everybody.

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 Post subject: Re: Players vs. Owners 2021/22 off season thread
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:03 pm 
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HeyNowHK wrote:
LTKfRGM wrote:

Owners could use a shortened season to push their expanded playoffs model as an experiment.

Going back into history, but 1981 NEEDED bigger expanded playoffs but only kind of had them and the team with the best record in baseball didn't make the playoffs because the split season winners got in.

So, a 100-110 game season might benefit the owners in several ways. Only have to pay the players 65% of their salary, 2 months of playing hardball in the negotiations AND they get their expanded playoffs for at least one year to try to sell it to the fans and everyone.

They can play no games and save even more money…


My point is, the 2nd half of the season is more profitable than the first half, generally speaking. The playoffs bring in more money, great ad revenue, etc.

If 81 games are cancelled (and I hope it doesn't come to that), the players lose half their salary, the owners lose maybe 30%-35% of their profits, something like that. Maybe the numbers aren't exactly right, but I read something along those lines a while back and I'm not 100% reliable when it comes to memory, so grain of salt.

But I think the owners can wait more easily than the players.

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 Post subject: Re: Players vs. Owners 2021/22 off season thread
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:58 pm 
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I understand that the owners are rich and could possibly weather a long lockout and somewhat offset that, but I disagree they would do better than the players..

Other than minor leaguers, who the MLBPA has done NOTHING for...players get a minimum of $500,000 per year. 2 years is a million. Any player who has spent 2 or more years in the league should be set to survive a year without baseball. Plus they get paid by the union during a strike/lockout.

On the other hand, most owners rely on a steady stream of revenue to offset debt service on teams, personnel, stadiums, etc...and lose multiple types of revenue without baseball.

Neither side has any clue what the average stadium going fan sacrifices to pay their salaries and pad their revenues.

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 Post subject: Re: Players vs. Owners 2021/22 off season thread
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 1:30 am 
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jdawginsc wrote:
I understand that the owners are rich and could possibly weather a long lockout and somewhat offset that, but I disagree they would do better than the players..

Other than minor leaguers, who the MLBPA has done NOTHING for...players get a minimum of $500,000 per year. 2 years is a million. Any player who has spent 2 or more years in the league should be set to survive a year without baseball. Plus they get paid by the union during a strike/lockout.

On the other hand, most owners rely on a steady stream of revenue to offset debt service on teams, personnel, stadiums, etc...and lose multiple types of revenue without baseball.

Neither side has any clue what the average stadium going fan sacrifices to pay their salaries and pad their revenues.


They might have a clue, but capitalism is all about what the market will bear. Maximizing profits is kind of the point of running a business. Pricy tickets is part of capitalism and we should recognize that. Capitalism isn't perfect.

But on my previous post, I was never talking about a year without baseball, just cutting into next season a month or two. 3 months without baseball, that's half a season for a player. If the average baseball career is 5 years, that's 10% of a career, more for some, less for others.

The average owner owns the team for 20-40 years before it's inherited by their children or sold. I think 1/2 season or 1/3rd of a season means more to the players than the owners.

That said, the players union has always been tough negotiators, so, there's lots of ways this could go. I'm a little inspired by basketball and football being able to work things out. I think both present a nice model, though I've read that the NFL players union isn't that strong. The NBA players union seems pretty well managed.

For baseball, and this is just my not very educated opinion, there's a lot of unknowns on how this will work out, and they seem to be pretty far apart with considerably different visions. I think it's going to take a while.

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 Post subject: Re: Players vs. Owners 2021/22 off season thread
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:57 pm 
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"Response" doesn't sound like "counter-proposal."

Quote:
The MLBPA is preparing a response to the proposal made by the league last week, reports Jon Heyman of MLB Network, who says that response will be "delivered within days."

https://www.sny.tv/articles/latest-on-mlb-lockout-2021


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