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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:10 pm 
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SuperFanChuck wrote:
deeroq wrote:
SuperFanChuck wrote:
he most likely needs...

1-2 MVP's

2 more 40 HR seasons

2 championships

500 hr's

all attainable


1 mvp ain't gonna do it.

championships might help, but probably not much.

he's not getting anywhere near 500hr's (he'd have to average 30+ for the next 8 years). 500hr's is no longer a guarantee of anything anyway.

beltran is a very good player and i'm glad to have him on the mets, but with the numbers he has at the age he's at i'd say his chances are exceedingly slim.


I will send this to him so he can quote it in his induction speech!


his mole has a better chance of induction.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:39 pm 
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deeroq wrote:
SuperFanChuck wrote:
deeroq wrote:
SuperFanChuck wrote:
he most likely needs...

1-2 MVP's

2 more 40 HR seasons

2 championships

500 hr's

all attainable


1 mvp ain't gonna do it.

championships might help, but probably not much.

he's not getting anywhere near 500hr's (he'd have to average 30+ for the next 8 years). 500hr's is no longer a guarantee of anything anyway.

beltran is a very good player and i'm glad to have him on the mets, but with the numbers he has at the age he's at i'd say his chances are exceedingly slim.


I will send this to him so he can quote it in his induction speech!


his mole has a better chance of induction.


Image

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:53 pm 
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Which CF will Beltran be compared to after he retires? Who is in his "era"?

Bernie Williams
Andrew Jones
Jim Edmonds
Ken Griffey Jr.
Johnny Damon
Steve Finley
Larry Walker
Mike Cameron
Grady Sizemore
Vernon Wells
Ichiro Suzuki
Torii Hunter
Kenny Lofton

(This is off the top of my head and 2 minutes of research.)

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:09 am 
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Beltran will go in with Mussina and Vizquel. I doubt any of the three see the Hall without help from the veterans' committee.

Please, I don't want to hear about the Ozzie/Vizquel comparison. Ozzie won 13 straight GG, a Silver Slugger award, and had the huge homer in the 85 NLCS and won the MVP of that series. I know Omar won 9 straight GG, but that's where the accomplishments end. In addition, Ozzie reinvented the position and Omar was Ozzie lite. I just don't see it.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 8:03 am 
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chinabox wrote:
Which CF will Beltran be compared to after he retires? Who is in his "era"?

Bernie Williams
Andrew Jones
Jim Edmonds
Ken Griffey Jr.
Johnny Damon
Steve Finley
Larry Walker
Mike Cameron
Grady Sizemore
Vernon Wells
Ichiro Suzuki
Torii Hunter
Kenny Lofton

(This is off the top of my head and 2 minutes of research.)


I wouldn't include Griffey, Walker, or Ichiro. Griffey's best seasons were nearly over by the time Beltran showed up in 1999, he has missed a ton of games just about every year since 2001 and has been playing RF in the past couple of seasons. Walker played mostly RF late in his career and Ichiro has been primarily a RF.

Of the others, Torii Hunter overlaps the best. Hunter has more gold gloves but Beltran has put up better offensive numbers.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 8:05 am 
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I remember a lot of Beltran/Bernie comparisons

Bernie isn't a hall of famer

Beltran isn't a hall of famer

Both are great players, and ones you'll tell your kids you got to see him play .. But not hall of famers .

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 8:27 am 
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Pornstache wrote:
I remember a lot of Beltran/Bernie comparisons

Bernie isn't a hall of famer

Beltran isn't a hall of famer

Both are great players, and ones you'll tell your kids you got to see him play .. But not hall of famers .


Bernie could have made the Hall if he hadn't been so injury prone (only 2 seasons of 150+ games) and had stayed productive longer. If he had missed fewer games and played until he was about 40, he would have had a great shot at 3000 hits.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 8:29 am 
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Banger wrote:
Pornstache wrote:
I remember a lot of Beltran/Bernie comparisons

Bernie isn't a hall of famer

Beltran isn't a hall of famer

Both are great players, and ones you'll tell your kids you got to see him play .. But not hall of famers .


Bernie could have made the Hall if he hadn't been so injury prone (only 2 seasons of 150+ games) and had stayed productive longer. If he had missed fewer games and played until he was about 40, he would have had a great shot at 3000 hits.


There are too many "if" players ..

If Moises Alou never got hurt, what do you think his stats would be ? He would probably easily have 500 homers .

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"I don't like losing." - Terry Collins.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 8:37 am 
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deeroq wrote:
SuperFanChuck wrote:
he most likely needs...

1-2 MVP's

2 more 40 HR seasons

2 championships

500 hr's

all attainable


1 mvp ain't gonna do it.

championships might help, but probably not much.

he's not getting anywhere near 500hr's (he'd have to average 30+ for the next 8 years). 500hr's is no longer a guarantee of anything anyway.

beltran is a very good player and i'm glad to have him on the mets, but with the numbers he has at the age he's at i'd say his chances are exceedingly slim.


If he hits 500 homeruns he will be a lock, and you can take that to the bank. He plays a defensive position where typically you don't see much production (barring the rare Mantle, Mays or Griffey) and plays it exceptionally well. Most importantly, his stolen bases and speed will factor into the equation and if he does hit 500 homeruns that unique power, speed and defense combination will make him a shoe-in.

He'll need to stay healthy and productive for a long time to pull it off, and his power numbers need to stay in the 30+ range. A few 40 HR seasons will help a lot.

MVP's are fickle ... and often do not even represent the MVP. WS titles are equally as obtuse. I really hope the hall isn't naive enough to factor them in to any equation as anything other than the gravy they are.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 8:37 am 
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Pornstache wrote:
Banger wrote:
Pornstache wrote:
I remember a lot of Beltran/Bernie comparisons

Bernie isn't a hall of famer

Beltran isn't a hall of famer

Both are great players, and ones you'll tell your kids you got to see him play .. But not hall of famers .


Bernie could have made the Hall if he hadn't been so injury prone (only 2 seasons of 150+ games) and had stayed productive longer. If he had missed fewer games and played until he was about 40, he would have had a great shot at 3000 hits.


There are too many "if" players ..

If Moises Alou never got hurt, what do you think his stats would be ? He would probably easily have 500 homers .


If Moises Alou played 150+ games every year he'd probably be in the HoF as one of the best right-handed hitters to have ever played the game.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 8:44 am 
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Old_Backstop wrote:
Pornstache wrote:
Banger wrote:
Pornstache wrote:
I remember a lot of Beltran/Bernie comparisons

Bernie isn't a hall of famer

Beltran isn't a hall of famer

Both are great players, and ones you'll tell your kids you got to see him play .. But not hall of famers .


Bernie could have made the Hall if he hadn't been so injury prone (only 2 seasons of 150+ games) and had stayed productive longer. If he had missed fewer games and played until he was about 40, he would have had a great shot at 3000 hits.


There are too many "if" players ..

If Moises Alou never got hurt, what do you think his stats would be ? He would probably easily have 500 homers .


If Moises Alou played 150+ games every year he'd probably be in the HoF as one of the best right-handed hitters to have ever played the game.


Exactly ..

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Matt Harvey will end up the best college pitcher from the 2010 draft.
"I don't like losing." - Terry Collins.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 8:47 am 
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Pornstache wrote:
Banger wrote:
Pornstache wrote:
I remember a lot of Beltran/Bernie comparisons

Bernie isn't a hall of famer

Beltran isn't a hall of famer

Both are great players, and ones you'll tell your kids you got to see him play .. But not hall of famers .


Bernie could have made the Hall if he hadn't been so injury prone (only 2 seasons of 150+ games) and had stayed productive longer. If he had missed fewer games and played until he was about 40, he would have had a great shot at 3000 hits.


There are too many "if" players ..

If Moises Alou never got hurt, what do you think his stats would be ? He would probably easily have 500 homers .


Too many? That's the way baseball works, and it works both ways.

If Wade Boggs's .259 batting average in 1992 was the sign of the end and not just an anomaly, he wouldn't be in the Hall. If Paul Molitor didn't have a late career resurgence as a DH he wouldn't be in the Hall. If George Brett's injuries in his early 30s had taken more of a toll on him he wouldn't have made the Hall. If Dave Winfield hung up his spikes after his back injury in his late 30s he wouldn't have made the Hall.

Is Beltran in the class of Ken Griffey Jr.? Of course not. But not everyone punches their ticket to the Hall by age 30. In fact, the majority of Hall of Famers don't.


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