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 Post subject: Re: Two bad teams and no Rosario IGT
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:53 pm 
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R Nitelight wrote:
SergioTheLittleMan wrote:
While the post is ridic, the unfortunate fact is that Duda is an above-average player and, independent of the past 3 games, Dom is unlikely to be even an average one. Everyone on this board is going to miss Duda sooner rather than later so might as well get started now.


Pu-Lease.

.233.

3 homers.

4 RBIs.

It's like he never left.


8)


No point arguing stats over this small a sample size but seems your post got cut off before you could list the .870 OPS / 138 OPS+?

Edit to my post above: "Almost everyone"


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 Post subject: Re: Two bad teams and no Rosario IGT
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:57 pm 
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AllWrightNow wrote:
MetFan29 wrote:
HeyNowHK wrote:
Who cares how many games he plays?!? As you said he's not a pitcher and he's 21. His stamina should be limitless at this stage.


That take is nuts. The Mets are playing 27 games in 27 days. It's OK if he sits a day during that.


Yeah nobody's stamina's going to be limitless in the dog days of summer unless you're sneaking in (now-illegal) greenies.


No need to take this so literally.


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 Post subject: Re: Two bad teams and no Rosario IGT
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:59 pm 
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SergioTheLittleMan wrote:



No point arguing stats over this small a sample size but seems your post got cut off before you could list the .870 OPS / 138 OPS+?



How about arguing just watching him play?

What's your confidence level of him actually doing something productive.


8)

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 Post subject: Re: Two bad teams and no Rosario IGT
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:00 pm 
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SergioTheLittleMan wrote:
AllWrightNow wrote:
The talk of Conforto being the best hitter on the team last year was way premature.

The talk of him being the best hitter on the team now isn't.


As the one who was doing that talking, I have to disagree. While of course, he'll continue to improve and may be better this year than last, he would have been a dominant offensive force last year, too, had TC not done so many things (won't list them again) to harm his confidence and decided - with no justification as I posted many times - that he was unable to hit lefties well enough to play full time.

Independent of this post, I actually wanted to post today (but resisted in an effort to stay humble) to the effect that you can see the difference playing with confidence makes. Conforto was always a great hitter, now he has the confidence to just let his talent shine through. (I told my gf during the ASB that Conforto was going to go off in the 2nd half b/c he's playing fully confident now).

Similarly, TDA is a much better hitter than he is currently showing. He's not at Conforto's level and I've specifically posted that in the past. But he's much better than he's shown and for the same reasons - lack of confidence springing from, among other things, TC lack of confidence in him as reflected in regularly hitting him 8th, losing playing time to a proven offensive nonentity, etc.

I posted earlier that today, with TDA hitting 6th, will be the beginning of "D'Renaissance" for TDA. That was mainly a joke or at least a half-joke. While it's possible, I don't actually think it's likely he will magically start being the player he can be the moment he moves up in the lineup. Because his confidence is already low and he's dealing with tons of pressure (recent NY Post "now or never for TDA to not be mediocre" article). Maybe it will take a move to another team to free him from that pressure and his manager's lack of confidence in him. Or maybe - hopefully - he'll beat it back on his own with us. The rest of the year would be a great time to see that.

But I don't think it's a coincidence that TDA is OPSing .783 on the road with 9 HRs and .579 / 1 at home. Do you?

It's ridiculous the length people will go to to blame TC for everything

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MarkJohnson>You wrote:
"Wright is greedy" is easily the worst take in the recent history of Mets fandom, and there have been some bad takes in Mets fandom.

Rich Coutinho wrote:
When I hear Yankee fans whine I always laugh. It is like the people who invented the color blue complaining about life


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 Post subject: Re: Two bad teams and no Rosario IGT
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:19 pm 
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MetGirl5 wrote:
SergioTheLittleMan wrote:
AllWrightNow wrote:
The talk of Conforto being the best hitter on the team last year was way premature.

The talk of him being the best hitter on the team now isn't.


As the one who was doing that talking, I have to disagree. While of course, he'll continue to improve and may be better this year than last, he would have been a dominant offensive force last year, too, had TC not done so many things (won't list them again) to harm his confidence and decided - with no justification as I posted many times - that he was unable to hit lefties well enough to play full time.

Independent of this post, I actually wanted to post today (but resisted in an effort to stay humble) to the effect that you can see the difference playing with confidence makes. Conforto was always a great hitter, now he has the confidence to just let his talent shine through. (I told my gf during the ASB that Conforto was going to go off in the 2nd half b/c he's playing fully confident now).

Similarly, TDA is a much better hitter than he is currently showing. He's not at Conforto's level and I've specifically posted that in the past. But he's much better than he's shown and for the same reasons - lack of confidence springing from, among other things, TC lack of confidence in him as reflected in regularly hitting him 8th, losing playing time to a proven offensive nonentity, etc.

I posted earlier that today, with TDA hitting 6th, will be the beginning of "D'Renaissance" for TDA. That was mainly a joke or at least a half-joke. While it's possible, I don't actually think it's likely he will magically start being the player he can be the moment he moves up in the lineup. Because his confidence is already low and he's dealing with tons of pressure (recent NY Post "now or never for TDA to not be mediocre" article). Maybe it will take a move to another team to free him from that pressure and his manager's lack of confidence in him. Or maybe - hopefully - he'll beat it back on his own with us. The rest of the year would be a great time to see that.

But I don't think it's a coincidence that TDA is OPSing .783 on the road with 9 HRs and .579 / 1 at home. Do you?

It's ridiculous the length people will go to to blame TC for everything


Fairly unfair. There's a difference between "blaming TC for everything" and assigning accountability to TC in certain situations. When you aren't playing the best player on your team or are mishandling him, as it's now been essentially proven he (and management) was doing with Conforto last year / early this year, you bear some responsibility. My argument is that he is doing something similar with TDA. I'm allowed to make that argument without "blaming TC for everything."

Obviously, the player can potentially overcome the obstacles as I was hoping TDA would have already done this year. And, who knows, if Conforto hit .750 last year, maybe TC would have recognized his ability earlier?

Honestly, to me it's ridiculous the lengths people will go to - even in the fact of watching Conforto now - to minimize the impact of confidence / the mental aspects of the game.


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 Post subject: Re: Two bad teams and no Rosario IGT
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:57 pm 
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SergioTheLittleMan wrote:
Fairly unfair. There's a difference between "blaming TC for everything" and assigning accountability to TC in certain situations. When you aren't playing the best player on your team or are mishandling him, as it's now been essentially proven he (and management) was doing with Conforto last year / early this year, you bear some responsibility. My argument is that he is doing something similar with TDA. I'm allowed to make that argument without "blaming TC for everything."

Obviously, the player can potentially overcome the obstacles as I was hoping TDA would have already done this year. And, who knows, if Conforto hit .750 last year, maybe TC would have recognized his ability earlier?

Honestly, to me it's ridiculous the lengths people will go to - even in the fact of watching Conforto now - to minimize the impact of confidence / the mental aspects of the game.


Conforto was regularly hitting 3rd last April. Then he struggled mightily, got demoted and the Mets traded for an expensive player to replace him. This year he again was inserted pretty quickly into the top of the lineup. The idea that TC didn't think Conforto was any good is absurd.

I didin't like the idea of TDA hitting 8th, and there are other lineup issues I strongly dislike (Reyes playing, Cabrera hitting 2nd), but if all of TDA's issues are due to hitting 8th, that's on TDA not on TC.

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MarkJohnson>You wrote:
"Wright is greedy" is easily the worst take in the recent history of Mets fandom, and there have been some bad takes in Mets fandom.

Rich Coutinho wrote:
When I hear Yankee fans whine I always laugh. It is like the people who invented the color blue complaining about life


RIP uapeople


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 Post subject: Re: Two bad teams and no Rosario IGT
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:18 pm 
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You don't remember Conforto staring the season mainly on the bench after he insanely almost started the year in the minors?

SergioTheLittleMan wrote:

I actually am humble in real life. I just happen to know certain things from time-to-time and it's hard to resist posting on that basis. Here, I *know* about Conforto - he can immediately be one of the league's most productive hitters and he's sitting on our bench.

http://www.nyfuturestars.com/community/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=44140&p=1386323&hilit=sitting+on+our+bench#p1386323


And where did I say TC thought he wasn't any good? Why is everything taken out of context and to the extreme / nth degree?

I also never said "all" of TDA's issues are caused by him hitting 8th or caused by TC's obvious lack of confidence in him generally. I am saying if he wasn't shown such little confidence by the manager, including hitting 8th, he likely wouldn't have all these issues. Those two things aren't equivalent.


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 Post subject: Re: Two bad teams and no Rosario IGT
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:27 pm 
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Nice win. I like Ramos too. He has nasty stuff. I'm usually team tank, but I've enjoyed these victories against the last place Phils.

Wouldn't mind playing spoiler to the Yankees either.

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and, I've always loved a good underdog story. Go Mets (2018).


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 Post subject: Re: Two bad teams and no Rosario IGT
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:48 pm 
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SergioTheLittleMan wrote:
You don't remember Conforto staring the season mainly on the bench after he insanely almost started the year in the minors?

SergioTheLittleMan wrote:

I actually am humble in real life. I just happen to know certain things from time-to-time and it's hard to resist posting on that basis. Here, I *know* about Conforto - he can immediately be one of the league's most productive hitters and he's sitting on our bench.

http://www.nyfuturestars.com/community/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=44140&p=1386323&hilit=sitting+on+our+bench#p1386323


And where did I say TC thought he wasn't any good? Why is everything taken out of context and to the extreme / nth degree?

I also never said "all" of TDA's issues are caused by him hitting 8th or caused by TC's obvious lack of confidence in him generally. I am saying if he wasn't shown such little confidence by the manager, including hitting 8th, he likely wouldn't have all these issues. Those two things aren't equivalent.


I'm not taking anything out of context. You are the one picking apart every little word. I'm not trying to twist your words.

Yes, I do remember Conforto starting the year on the bench. And I thought it was dumb he was almost demoted. But I don't think those things were TC's doing. And if you are going to make a huge thing out of lineup order like you are here, the fact that Conforto hit 3rd so early last year, and was inserted pretty dang quickly into the top of the lineup this year - even after the team had considered demoting him in ST - would seemingly indicate the manager did "recognize ability" in him.

As for TDA fine if you really need me to rephrase it...insert "TDA likely wouldn't have all of these issues" instead of "all of TDA's issues". That will be a more garbled sentence but my point remains the same..., since really the only issue to me (other than being injury prone) is that he hasn't hit as well as I expected

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MarkJohnson>You wrote:
"Wright is greedy" is easily the worst take in the recent history of Mets fandom, and there have been some bad takes in Mets fandom.

Rich Coutinho wrote:
When I hear Yankee fans whine I always laugh. It is like the people who invented the color blue complaining about life


RIP uapeople


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 Post subject: Re: Two bad teams and no Rosario IGT
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:12 pm 
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I honestly don't think the Conforto thing is arguable. Witness what Keith Law said just the other day: https://twitter.com/keithlaw/status/895470356638687238 and has said generally: https://twitter.com/search?l=&q=conforto%20from%3Akeithlaw&src=typd. That's not to say Sandy may not have had a role, too, as I posted earlier in this thread. But it would seem to be mainly TC.

What I'm saying with TDA is obviously, at the end of the day, TDA is responsible for taking advantage of whatever opportunities he is given and he hasn't - that's also inarguable. But I'm also saying that another manager might: 1) Have recognized that he had the potential to be a middle-of-the-order hitter and acted accordingly; or, 2) At the
very least, not consistently buried him at 8 and done other things that reflect a lack of confidence in him, such as providing far more playing time than was warranted to Rivera. I think it's apparent that D'Arnaud isn't playing with confidence (e.g. the home / road splits) and that makes things more difficult. To say nothing of the physical aspects (worse pitches to hit hitting before the pitcher, theoretically).

I'm not being very eloquent. The shorter version is that I don't think TC put either Conforto or TDA in the best position to play to whatever their natural talent level is. And I think other managers would have. That doesn't make TC the worst manager in the world not does it mean neither player has ultimate responsibility for their own performance. I'd just like to see our manager put our young players in the best position to succeed and I haven't seen that here. That's pretty much what prompted me to come out of lurk-mode in the first place.

On a tangentially-related side note, obviously players have different makeups. I don't think TC could harm Rosario's development (knock on wood) if he tried - that guy has a self-confidence that's likely incorruptible. TDA isn't Rosario in that respect.*

*Cue the "we don't need no snowflakes" folks.


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 Post subject: Re: Two bad teams and no Rosario IGT
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:13 pm 
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MetGirl5 wrote:
SergioTheLittleMan wrote:
AllWrightNow wrote:
The talk of Conforto being the best hitter on the team last year was way premature.

The talk of him being the best hitter on the team now isn't.


As the one who was doing that talking, I have to disagree. While of course, he'll continue to improve and may be better this year than last, he would have been a dominant offensive force last year, too, had TC not done so many things (won't list them again) to harm his confidence and decided - with no justification as I posted many times - that he was unable to hit lefties well enough to play full time.

Independent of this post, I actually wanted to post today (but resisted in an effort to stay humble) to the effect that you can see the difference playing with confidence makes. Conforto was always a great hitter, now he has the confidence to just let his talent shine through. (I told my gf during the ASB that Conforto was going to go off in the 2nd half b/c he's playing fully confident now).

Similarly, TDA is a much better hitter than he is currently showing. He's not at Conforto's level and I've specifically posted that in the past. But he's much better than he's shown and for the same reasons - lack of confidence springing from, among other things, TC lack of confidence in him as reflected in regularly hitting him 8th, losing playing time to a proven offensive nonentity, etc.

I posted earlier that today, with TDA hitting 6th, will be the beginning of "D'Renaissance" for TDA. That was mainly a joke or at least a half-joke. While it's possible, I don't actually think it's likely he will magically start being the player he can be the moment he moves up in the lineup. Because his confidence is already low and he's dealing with tons of pressure (recent NY Post "now or never for TDA to not be mediocre" article). Maybe it will take a move to another team to free him from that pressure and his manager's lack of confidence in him. Or maybe - hopefully - he'll beat it back on his own with us. The rest of the year would be a great time to see that.

But I don't think it's a coincidence that TDA is OPSing .783 on the road with 9 HRs and .579 / 1 at home. Do you?

It's ridiculous the length people will go to to blame TC for everything

It's ridiculous the length to which some have made this season a patting themselves on the back exercise.


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 Post subject: Re: Two bad teams and no Rosario IGT
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:29 pm 
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SergioTheLittleMan wrote:
I honestly don't think the Conforto thing is arguable. Witness what Keith Law said just the other day: https://twitter.com/keithlaw/status/895470356638687238 and has said generally: https://twitter.com/search?l=&q=conforto%20from%3Akeithlaw&src=typd. That's not to say Sandy may not have had a role, too, as I posted earlier in this thread. But it would seem to be mainly TC.

What I'm saying with TDA is obviously, at the end of the day, TDA is responsible for taking advantage of whatever opportunities he is given and he hasn't - that's also inarguable. But I'm also saying that another manager might: 1) Have recognized that he had the potential to be a middle-of-the-order hitter and acted accordingly; or, 2) At the
very least, not consistently buried him at 8 and done other things that reflect a lack of confidence in him, such as providing far more playing time than was warranted to Rivera. I think it's apparent that D'Arnaud isn't playing with confidence (e.g. the home / road splits) and that makes things more difficult. To say nothing of the physical aspects (worse pitches to hit hitting before the pitcher, theoretically).

I'm not being very eloquent. The shorter version is that I don't think TC put either Conforto or TDA in the best position to play to whatever their natural talent level is. And I think other managers would have. That doesn't make TC the worst manager in the world not does it mean neither player has ultimate responsibility for their own performance. I'd just like to see our manager put our young players in the best position to succeed and I haven't seen that here. That's pretty much what prompted me to come out of lurk-mode in the first place.

On a tangentially-related side note, obviously players have different makeups. I don't think TC could harm Rosario's development (knock on wood) if he tried - that guy has a self-confidence that's likely incorruptible. TDA isn't Rosario in that respect.*

*Cue the "we don't need no snowflakes" folks.


I don't really take Keith Law seriously when it comes to Terry. Law is way too "look at me, I'm smarter than everyone else".

And it's been pretty well said over the years by the beat reporters that are actually covering the Mets that the FO has a lot of influence on the day to day management of the team. And I certainly think the fact that Bruce, Ces, and Granderson were making pretty big money....and that they were looking to trade one (non-Ces) had a lot to do with those 3 guys being the "regulars" to start the year than whatever TC though. A narrative that "TC hates Conforto" has been beaten to death by some folks on twitter, and sorry I just don't see it. He was entrusted pretty quickly into important roles on the team both this year and last year. Yeah, maybe if he was an accomplished vet they would have let him go even longer last year despite the struggles, but still he did have a pretty long leash. Then eventually they ended up trading for Bruce - and I don't think that trade was made with the idea that Bruce would be the 4th OF.

As for TDA, like I said I didnt initially agree with the decision to hit him 8th, but somebody has to hit there. As for the home/road splits - are the fans booing him? I'm not sure I see the connection between the splits being indicative of low confidence. And FWIW last year he hit better at home.

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MarkJohnson>You wrote:
"Wright is greedy" is easily the worst take in the recent history of Mets fandom, and there have been some bad takes in Mets fandom.

Rich Coutinho wrote:
When I hear Yankee fans whine I always laugh. It is like the people who invented the color blue complaining about life


RIP uapeople


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