MESSAGE BOARDS TOOLS:  Search | Members | User Control Panel |   | Login 


All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]

Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 115 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 10  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: It is time to say goodbye to Sandy Alderson
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:02 am 
User avatar
Offline
Legend of NYFS

Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 2:57 pm
Posts: 80768
Location: New York, NY
-First let me say that this really isn't about "trashing" Sandy and the job he has done

-I'm vocal about my dislike of ownership. I fully realize that a large percentage of the Mets "problems" is due to budgetary issues. Reading between the lines of Sandy's comments yesterday you should expect a lower payroll in 2018. That being said improvement doesn't have to come with spending.


I am of the belief that we need a regime change. Sandy's "patience" has been a virtue in many ways.... going forward the Mets need to be bold, they need to be open-minded, they need to be proactive and they need to willing to make moves on the fly. I do not personally feel Sandy and this FO is best equipped to partake in such a vast change in philosophy. The Mets likely need a younger, more energized person who will be willing to "tinker" more. Trades like the Hicks deal for the Yankees, Beckham for Baltimore, Dyson to Seattle. Moves like these "minor" deals that sometimes work out big.

_________________
Twit-@Wexlerrules
Staunch anti-BADP (Batting average dependent players)
Pronounced "Dar-No"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: It is time to say goodbye to Sandy Alderson
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:12 am 
User avatar
Offline
Legend of NYFS

Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 2:57 pm
Posts: 80768
Location: New York, NY
No knock on Ricco but he's basically a contracts guy. I'll "live" with the payroll being lower than ideal if we had someone in charge who has shown a propensity for making under the radar deals. Dodgers sniped Zaidi for this reason. Jason McLeod, Kyle Stark, Girsch from St. Louis, Kantrovitz sounds very intriguing from the A's, a lot of people rave about JJ Piccolo from KC etc etc.

_________________
Twit-@Wexlerrules
Staunch anti-BADP (Batting average dependent players)
Pronounced "Dar-No"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: It is time to say goodbye to Sandy Alderson
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:17 am 
User avatar
Offline
General Manager

Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:03 pm
Posts: 7223
I really don't think people understand, the only thing keeping Jeff Wilpon from reigning fully over baseball ops IS Sandy. Once Sandy is gone, Ricco will be installed and he, while a wonderful guy (met him before), is too meek and will be a puppet of ownership.

I say this fully aware of Sandy's flaws. I agree that his patience is no longer appropriate and his intransigence regarding the age of the bullpen is infuriating.

_________________
Escaped from Elba.
Original drummer for the Wilpons Are Cheap.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: It is time to say goodbye to Sandy Alderson
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:17 am 
User avatar
Offline
Legend of NYFS

Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:56 pm
Posts: 59192
Sandy's best moves were the ones where we were selling the big fish and he had the balls to wait out his com-padres and maximize the return.

And with the benefit of hindsight, some of the shine off both of those deals has worn off, anyway.

More recently, the overall activity levels have been thoroughly underwhelming as the team transitioned into contention, and while the Cespedes move is one that I would do 10 times out of 10, it certainly appears as though given the activity around it, Sandy is not nearly as good at buying as he WAS at selling, as Michael Fulmer is probably the best piece to move in a rental trade in the last few years.

He's basically been unable to do anything on a trade front over the last few years that was anything but a dump. We basically enter every offseason knowing we're not going to make a big trade to address whatever the needs are, and with a tight FA budget, the hope is perpetually that somebody will fall into our lap late - like Jerry Blevins (and less like Antonio Bastardo, Fernando Salas and a slew of other late offseason moves).

To be completely fair, Sandy has avoided making huge sunk financial commitments, which may be his best work as a GM, especially with an ownership group that hates acknowledging sunk costs. But to also be fair, he's gotten lucky a few times there. He wouldn't go 5 years on Michael Bourn so we didn't get him...he still offered Bourn 4/48. There would have been no Cespedes, no World Series, nothing if Bourn took that offer. Hell, I wanted Zobrist, and many others did too - we were high bidder supposedly on him. 4/60. Thats still 2/30 left after this season, and there's no chance we just moved on with him as a bench guy at that rate. We're going to be talking awfully soon about that Lagares contract when it constricts our OF moves the next 2 years as we are paying him 2/16 in 2018/2019 to be a guy best served to have 150 PA at max in a season, and play 2 innings in the field.

Agreed, its time for a change. People often say that TC was only supposed to be here to hold the fort until we were ready to contend. I'd argue that is how Sandy should've been treated as well. He's a caretaker, someone who is not going to rush into things, operate under the mantra of "first, do no harm." We need to take some chances now with a limited farm system and limited payroll otherwise we're going to look like the Angels awfully soon - stuck in perpetual 75-80 win loops.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: It is time to say goodbye to Sandy Alderson
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:22 am 
User avatar
Offline
Legend of NYFS

Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:56 pm
Posts: 59192
Ralf wrote:
I really don't think people understand, the only thing keeping Jeff Wilpon from reigning fully over baseball ops IS Sandy. Once Sandy is gone, Ricco will be installed and he, while a wonderful guy (met him before), is too meek and will be a puppet of ownership.


If the theory goes that the Wilpons will run baseball ops, and their mantra will be first to save money above all else, how do you explain the Omar era of wild spending? Omar of all people was such a strong force that he held the Wilpons at bay???

Even if you say "Madoff!!!" does that mean that Fred and Jeff were formerly willing to reinvest all of those Madoff profits into the team? Why now suddenly would they not be willing to do the same with the playoff money, or increased TV revenue, etc?

Nah, they'll be the same role they've always played: lurking in the background, more of a pain on payroll limits than big market team should be, meddling in things they shouldn't and causing PR pains, and as a nice cover for any mistakes made in baseball ops.

The "Sandy is the only person who can save us from the Wilpons!!!" thing is a consistent talking point among Sandy supporters, but its silly. You think other owners aren't consistent meddlers worrying about where their money is going? And that other GMs don't have to deal with that, too? With few exceptions, many front offices succeed despite the restrictions put on them,not because ownership lets them do whatever they want unchecked.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: It is time to say goodbye to Sandy Alderson
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:24 am 
User avatar
Offline
General Manager

Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:03 pm
Posts: 7223
Btw, Vaccaro's column last night is a killer on the Mets organization. He nails whats wrong.

Quote:
Contrast Steinbrenner’s words with Sandy Alderson’s, issued the same day at Citi Field before the third game of this year’s Subway Series. There, Alderson sat before a few dozen inquisitors and steadfastly defended the manner in which the team has conducted business in August — which has consisted mostly of slashing and burning and unloading and off-loading players.

“This was not a salary dump,” Alderson insisted, even though he was unable to find a workable euphemism for what it really was and admitted there was no guarantee money saved in August and September would be used to beef up the payroll in December and January.

So that’s how one New York team does business: always hedging its bets, the general manager forced to promise late-summer contingency fire sales in order to talk his bosses into handing over a few spare nickels and quarters when the time comes to build a club. You should have seen how proud Alderson looked as he described showing those bosses how much money he’d saved them these past few weeks.

This is how the other New York team does business:

“It was a great first 2 ¹/₂ months,” Steinbrenner said. “It’s been a tough last two months for the most part. But I think they’re coming out of it and the pitching additions we made at the deadline are already helping, and we’re going to have a strong last five, six weeks.”

And then, as if anyone really wondered:

“We can still go into the free-agent market,” he said.

The Mets had an almost perfect two-year run in 2015 and ’16, winning games, making postseasons, making some expenditures but nothing too crazy, nothing that actually would catapult them to the top-five payrolls in the sport despite playing in its No. 1 media market. It was perfect because as long as the good times rolled, they wouldn’t be constantly reminded of their parsimonious ways.

That, ultimately, is what separates the teams in both reality and in public perception. It drives the men who run the Mets crazy that they are forever taking bullets that seem to never get aimed at the Yankees. But there’s a reason for that: even in a time when Steinbrenner has tried (and failed) to get under the luxury-tax threshold, and spoken openly about that, there is never a question about his commitment.

And if ever there would be, there are always the six magic words: “That’s always the mindset for us.”


http://nypost.com/2017/08/16/why-yankees-organizational-mindset-is-better-than-the-mets/

_________________
Escaped from Elba.
Original drummer for the Wilpons Are Cheap.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: It is time to say goodbye to Sandy Alderson
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:27 am 
User avatar
Offline
Blue Chipper

Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:03 pm
Posts: 383
I think it's time for a change. I just want someone a bit more aggressive on the margins and maybe even a bit more aggressive in the draft and extensions, though, those cost money too. Sandy is just way too passive for my taste, even though it got us a World Series appearance.

Would love for us to get a FO and actually go all-in, aggressively, on roster and player development.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: It is time to say goodbye to Sandy Alderson
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:31 am 
User avatar
Offline
General Manager

Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:03 pm
Posts: 7223
MarkJohnson>You wrote:
Ralf wrote:
I really don't think people understand, the only thing keeping Jeff Wilpon from reigning fully over baseball ops IS Sandy. Once Sandy is gone, Ricco will be installed and he, while a wonderful guy (met him before), is too meek and will be a puppet of ownership.


If the theory goes that the Wilpons will run baseball ops, and their mantra will be first to save money above all else, how do you explain the Omar era of wild spending? Omar of all people was such a strong force that he held the Wilpons at bay???

Even if you say "Madoff!!!" does that mean that Fred and Jeff were formerly willing to reinvest all of those Madoff profits into the team? Why now suddenly would they not be willing to do the same with the playoff money, or increased TV revenue, etc?

Nah, they'll be the same role they've always played: lurking in the background, more of a pain on payroll limits than big market team should be, and as a nice cover for any mistakes made in baseball ops.


Remarkable post. Totally bereft of reality. Its like the past two decades don't exist.

Look to the Duquette and Super Scout Era for your real juxtaposition. The beginning of the Omar Era was a counter to that time only because they were completely humiliated. Thats the Wilpon cycle.

Also, again, no one is saying Sandy is perfect. Despite his shortcomings, he is however one of the few individuals in baseball that has the ability to handle the GM position for the NY Mets. How many times over the decades of their reign do you have to read about the Wilpons meddling and "process" to understand this?

_________________
Escaped from Elba.
Original drummer for the Wilpons Are Cheap.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: It is time to say goodbye to Sandy Alderson
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:32 am 
User avatar
Offline
Legend of NYFS

Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2006 6:12 pm
Posts: 38272
Location: Panic City
Fred: What would you do if you were hired?

Candidate 1: I'd go out and aggressively spend money on the best players.

Fred: NEXT!!!!!!!!!!!


8)

_________________
Whatever.

8)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: It is time to say goodbye to Sandy Alderson
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:39 am 
User avatar
Offline
Manager

Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2008 12:36 pm
Posts: 6505
While you can blame certain things on ownership as MJ said Sandy also got fortunate in a few spots (the Carlos Gomez failed trade being another one, and having young, cheap power arms already in the system). And even aside from all of that there's so many small things the organization screws up daily like roster/DL management, the medical issues...I'm loathe to automatically blame every last thing on Jeffy however much I don't like him and wish he'd go away.

Sandy's had two winning seasons as a GM in eight years, and that total would probably be zero if not for Ces being forced on him. His list of accomplishments is pretty small apart from a handful of fine seller trades, Conforto, hopefully the two kids this year and a couple of the cheap pen acquisitions that did work out (Reed, Blevins). Whatever constraints he has, he's got to take the hits too. Even our meager - for this market - payroll is still higher than other teams and organizations doing better than us.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: It is time to say goodbye to Sandy Alderson
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:47 am 
Offline
Fan Favorite

Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:14 am
Posts: 1735
I really can't fault Alderson for any of this mess. Truthfully everything points back at the Wilpons. I remember years ago before there was a cap put in on the draft. The Wilpons just refused to spend money and it hurt the team. A high profile international player comes along......nope....their not interested. Like some one else said, they need to be embarrassed in order to spend money.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: It is time to say goodbye to Sandy Alderson
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:50 am 
User avatar
Offline
Legend of NYFS

Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:56 pm
Posts: 59192
Ralf wrote:


Look to the Duquette and Super Scout Era for your real juxtaposition. The beginning of the Omar Era was a counter to that time only because they were completely humiliated. Thats the Wilpon cycle.



That was literally 1 season. Preceeded by a time before and proceeded after when the Mets were one of the top payrolls in the game, and found at least some degree of success - essentially equal to the success ratio of the Alderson era.

So if you want to put your money on anybody other than Sandy being Jim Duquette levels of ineffectiveness, go for it. I've seen the Mets succeed with people who I think aren't necessarily the best and brightest in baseball ops in Steve Phillips and Omar Minaya, so I'll put my money on there being plenty of good, bright candidates out there who can have plenty of success here (beyond that of Omar, Phillips and yes, Sandy), despite the Wilpons, as many GMs out there do (e.g., how does Mike Rizzo succeed having to offer every FA he chases 50% of the PV that his counterparts can offer?).




I'm not a Knicks fan, but this sounds equivalent to somebody arguing that the Knicks needed to hold onto Phil Jackson, because if they didn't, Isaiah Thomas would come back, because only Phil could control Dolan.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 115 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 10  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Majestic-12 [Bot] and 102 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group


SUPPORT NYFS VIA OUR NETWORK OF SITES: FIND AN AA MEETING | FIND A JOB NEAR YOU | SUICIDE DEPRESSION ADDICTION HELP | BOOK REVIEWS EDITORIAL | LOCAL DOCTORS HOSPITAL EMERGENCY CARE | HOME REPAIR CONTRACTOR BUILDER AC HEAT | LOCAL LIVE MUSIC OPEN MIC JAM | FIND YOUR CONGRESSMAN AND WHERE TO VOTE | WOMEN VETERANS HELP SUPPORT AND RESOURCES | THE SOULCIALISTS LIVE LOCAL PIANO MUSIC TREASURE COAST | PET FRIENDLY PARKS HOTELS | SOLAR WIND RENEWABLE POWER | FILE TAX RETURN ATTORNEY | 4G SEO SMART PHONES TABLET WEB | BIRTHDAY PARTY RENTAL CHARACTERS | HOMES APARTMENTS FOR SALE OR RENT NEAR YOU | SPORT COURT GYM FITNESS CLUB TRACK FIELD | GOLF BEACH RESORT HOTELS RESTAURANTS BED BREAKFAST | HEALTH LIFE AUTO HOME INSURANCE QUOTE | METRO BUS TRAIN SUBWAY AIRPORT HELIPORT | VETERAN TIPS CRAFT DIY RECIPES | ATM BRANCH CONSOLIDATION STUDENT CREDIT LOAN RATES | LOCAL NEWS AND RSS FEEDS | CHRISTMAS BLACK FRIDAY BACK TO SCHOOL SALE | LATEST E NEWS ON MOVIES TV GAMES GIFTS BOOKS | LAST MINUTE ANNIVERSARY BIRTHDAY HOUSE WARMING GIFTS NEAR YOU | LOCAL ARTS CRAFTS SUPPLY STORE | LOCAL HEALTHY HEART DIABETIC RESTAURANTS AND STORES | CHURCH TEMPLE MOSQUE OR PLACE OF WORSHIP NEAR YOU | LOCAL LINKS TO RESTAURANTS AIRPORTS DRUG STORES | DRUG OXY OPIATE ALCOHOL PHYSICAL REHAB | SUICIDE HOTLINE DANIELLE COLBERT PHOTO MUG SHOT | © Untraditional Media

The%20Soulcialists