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 Post subject: Re: Potentially bad Conforto news
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 12:15 pm 
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Yeah I also don't get the reluctance for Bruce at one year $18 million if you're willing to give him three years at $15 million per - not like the $3 million difference should be that big a deal next year (though it is the Wilpons).

I actually doubt he signs for that much anyway unless he has a huge postseason.


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 Post subject: Re: Potentially bad Conforto news
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 12:19 pm 
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AllWrightNow wrote:
Yeah I also don't get the reluctance for Bruce at one year $18 million if you're willing to give him three years at $15 million per -

All moot anyway. But yeah he almost certainly would have been made the QO and rejected it.


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 Post subject: Re: Potentially bad Conforto news
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 12:22 pm 
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I wouldn't give Bruce 15m per.

And the offensive breakout has occurred with Wilmer.


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 Post subject: Re: Potentially bad Conforto news
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 12:27 pm 
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ilikeike29 wrote:
I wouldn't give Bruce 15m per.

And the offensive breakout has occurred with Wilmer.


Breakout is a little bit strong if we're talking of him as a corner guy. .788 OPS is not very inspiring as a starting option.


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 Post subject: Re: Potentially bad Conforto news
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 12:32 pm 
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thebull wrote:
ilikeike29 wrote:
I wouldn't give Bruce 15m per.

And the offensive breakout has occurred with Wilmer.


Breakout is a little bit strong if we're talking of him as a corner guy. .788 OPS is not very inspiring as a starting option.

He's basically pre-Ruthian Daniel Murphy with less foot speed but better hands defensively and a bit more pop. That guy is a starting caliber 2B or 3B, assuming the defense is merely below average and not a trainwreck.


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 Post subject: Re: Potentially bad Conforto news
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 12:36 pm 
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ilikeike29 wrote:
thebull wrote:
ilikeike29 wrote:
I wouldn't give Bruce 15m per.

And the offensive breakout has occurred with Wilmer.


Breakout is a little bit strong if we're talking of him as a corner guy. .788 OPS is not very inspiring as a starting option.

He's basically pre-Ruthian Daniel Murphy with less foot speed but better hands defensively and a bit more pop. That guy is a starting caliber 2B or 3B, assuming the defense is merely below average and not a trainwreck.

Yes and as you recall, most people were ready and willing to move on from that Murphy. I certainly don't want to make the same mistake (as with Murphy) of letting Flo go for basically nothing, which is the track they'd be on if they keep him until his control period runs out.

And I would also debate the notion that Flo has better hands... I don't think that's so, or the bar is so low that it doesn't matter. And Flo has a pretty horrible arm that would limit him to 2B any way you slice it (aside from 1B). I think one would have to carry a pretty dim view of defensive value to hand any position to Flo, unless as I said, he were to reach a new level with the stick. There should be enough other options at 2B/3B for the team to pursue IMO.


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 Post subject: Re: Potentially bad Conforto news
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 1:02 pm 
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ilikeike29 wrote:
thebull wrote:
ilikeike29 wrote:
I wouldn't give Bruce 15m per.

And the offensive breakout has occurred with Wilmer.


Breakout is a little bit strong if we're talking of him as a corner guy. .788 OPS is not very inspiring as a starting option.

He's basically pre-Ruthian Daniel Murphy with less foot speed but better hands defensively and a bit more pop. That guy is a starting caliber 2B or 3B, assuming the defense is merely below average and not a trainwreck.


The league offensive environment is completely different now than it was back then. Offense was at historical lows back then and it's at historical highs now. A mid-high .700 OPS just doesn't cut it, IMO.


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 Post subject: Re: Potentially bad Conforto news
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 1:09 pm 
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thebull wrote:
ilikeike29 wrote:
thebull wrote:

Breakout is a little bit strong if we're talking of him as a corner guy. .788 OPS is not very inspiring as a starting option.

He's basically pre-Ruthian Daniel Murphy with less foot speed but better hands defensively and a bit more pop. That guy is a starting caliber 2B or 3B, assuming the defense is merely below average and not a trainwreck.


The league offensive environment is completely different now than it was back then. Offense was at historical lows back then and it's at historical highs now. A mid-high .700 OPS just doesn't cut it, IMO.

I am well aware. I'm saying post-adjustment they're similar. They're in the same wRC+ range.


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 Post subject: Re: Potentially bad Conforto news
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 1:14 pm 
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Yes and as you recall, most people were ready and willing to move on from that Murphy. I certainly don't want to make the same mistake (as with Murphy) of letting Flo go for basically nothing, which is the track they'd be on if they keep him until his control period runs out.

Yes and I'd replace Flores if the right upgrade came along. But it was never a priority to replace Murphy for a reason and the same should apply here.

Replacing Flores is not as urgent as adding a 3B, OF, C, SP, or a couple relievers. If it worked out that someone fell into your lap, then great. But you'll always have bigger holes than Flores.


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 Post subject: Re: Potentially bad Conforto news
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 1:27 pm 
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ilikeike29 wrote:
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Yes and as you recall, most people were ready and willing to move on from that Murphy. I certainly don't want to make the same mistake (as with Murphy) of letting Flo go for basically nothing, which is the track they'd be on if they keep him until his control period runs out.

Yes and I'd replace Flores if the right upgrade came along. But it was never a priority to replace Murphy for a reason and the same should apply here.

Replacing Flores is not as urgent as adding a 3B, OF, C, SP, or a couple relievers. If it worked out that someone fell into your lap, then great. But you'll always have bigger holes than Flores.

No, I don't think replacing him as a bench/role player is urgent. Perhaps we agree there.

And now that Scooter is in question, adding an OFer prob makes sense also.

They've got a lot of work to do.


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 Post subject: Re: Potentially bad Conforto news
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:28 pm 
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HeyNowHK wrote:
ilikeike29 wrote:
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Yes and as you recall, most people were ready and willing to move on from that Murphy. I certainly don't want to make the same mistake (as with Murphy) of letting Flo go for basically nothing, which is the track they'd be on if they keep him until his control period runs out.

Yes and I'd replace Flores if the right upgrade came along. But it was never a priority to replace Murphy for a reason and the same should apply here.

Replacing Flores is not as urgent as adding a 3B, OF, C, SP, or a couple relievers. If it worked out that someone fell into your lap, then great. But you'll always have bigger holes than Flores.

No, I don't think replacing him as a bench/role player is urgent. Perhaps we agree there.

And now that Scooter is in question, adding an OFer prob makes sense also.

They've got a lot of work to do.

I'm talking about replacing him as a starter. I think you have three infield spots down right now, unless you think Dom is not ready yet.

On the other hand, even with a healthy Conforto, you still need another OF. Nimmo/Lagares is not going to cut it even if Conforto was magically healed by tomorrow.


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 Post subject: Re: Potentially bad Conforto news
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:46 pm 
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ilikeike29 wrote:
I'm talking about replacing him as a starter. I think you have three infield spots down right now, unless you think Dom is not ready yet.

On the other hand, even with a healthy Conforto, you still need another OF. Nimmo/Lagares is not going to cut it even if Conforto was magically healed by tomorrow.


We're pretty far apart on Flo. He's barely tolerated now as a part time starter. He would be openly loathed if people had to watch him constantly bleed runs playing every day.

And I also don't know why some have this reluctance to give Lagares/Nimmo an opportunity, esp if they were going to be surrounded by 2 all-star caliber OFers. In any case, that bet is apparently off now with Scooter's shoulder situation.

I guess the difference in view is a product of one's view toward defense. If you support this FO's open dismissal of defense, then I guess you don't care about playing Flo and likewise don't see the value in Lagares.


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