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 Post subject: Injuries, the real legacy of the Alderson era?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 7:36 am 
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One day maybe not too far in the future, the Sandy Alderson era will come to an end. And while the Wilpon's finances have gotten the lion's share of attention (and rightly so) for the reason the team has struggled for most of his reign, I believe the underlying cause has been the epidemic of serious injuries that undermined Sandy's best laid plans for this team's success.

Injuries have extinguished the career of David Wright a few years earlier than expected; could very well be doing the same thing to Yoenis Cespedes, and are the major contributor to the premature end of Matt Harvey.

Injuries have derailed the development, if not the careers, of Travis d'Arnaud, Steven Matz, Juan Lagares and Zack Wheeler. Michael Conforto should be joining this list by the end of the week.

Yes, I get it, all teams have injuries and I understand the whole "look at the Dodgers" argument. But re-read the names on the preceding paragraphs: the Mets counted on and invested heavily on each. There is nearly $50M in salary earmarked on Ces and DW next year. Lagares has a big contract. Harvey and Conforto were high draft picks and marquee players. TdA and Wheeler were touted as major acquisitions in the Great Talent Tradeoff earlier this decade.

None of these players can be counted on for next year, IMO. Noah Syndergaard and Jacob deGrom, the two expected mainstays of the staff, have also had injury issues. Injuries have ruined this season and have cast a pall over the next one. A repeat cycle of injured talent is a more likely scenario than a return to the playoffs. Is anyone else holding their breath each time Amed Rosario covers second on a throw or steals a base? Activity this winter is likely to be nil because of the uncertainty over the health of large chunks of the Mets roster.

So where does the blame lie? Is it bad medicine, both from a diagnostic and a preventative standpoint? Is it a stubbornness of the FO to acknowledge medical facts? Is it bad luck, a karmic payback for the Miracles of 1969 and 1986? All three? Something else?


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 Post subject: Re: Injuries, the real legacy of the Alderson era?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 8:54 am 
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You can't blame karma when you know somethings wrong and you let the player talk you out of getting an MRI. To be honest with you, if I was an owner the first purchase I would make is an X-Ray and MRI machine. Then hire a trainer who knows how to work those machines.


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 Post subject: Re: Injuries, the real legacy of the Alderson era?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:43 am 
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Cool post. The legacy goes somewhat deeper than just injuries tho.

I would say it's a combination of several factors including:
1) Too many draft pick misses
2) Two epic personnel mistakes
3) No coherent bullpen strategy... until maybe a month ago
4) The general philosophy of building around SPing
5) Some complacency after tasting some success (and what was really the mirror image lack of urgency on the climb out of irrelevance in the early years)
6) A lack of minor league FA strategy to provide any potential depth in the upper minors
7) A general disdain (or disinterest) for defense and athleticism
8 ) Bad luck, if they can be blamed for that (injuries).

I'll cut off the negatives there. On the plus side, I think they probably deserve some credit for driving (to some extent) the flyball revolution, if you will. They seemed to focus on players who were more flyball (over GB) before it became a thing. But to me, this is a double edged sword. Alderson built a team that was in Earl Weaver's image - a team that succeeded when it left the park, but struggled otherwise. But unlike Weaver teams, this one was never a strong defensive unit.

At this point, without totally dismissing the WS appearance, it does seem a lot like the success of this regime came largely off of the epically weak division we played in the past few seasons. But you have to take advantage of the hand you're dealt, so kudos for that. On all the wheeling and dealing, the sum total standout was the deal than netted Noah. From the personnel standpoint, the negatives (Turner, Murphy, McHugh, Fulmer) seem to outweigh the positives at this point.

I'd love to see a new voice leading the baseball op but that doesn't seem to be in the tea leaves. It's almost Trumpian when some people indicate that 'only Sandy Alderson can fix this' given the ownership structure. I can't accept that SA is the only person who can stand down JeffW but I'm resigned to accepting that SA will stay here and that he prob knows that he's going to have to do some real work this winter or risk tarnishing his own legacy. If the team goes into a long period of irrelevance, Alderson will have been no better than other team stewards who had fleeting success.


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 Post subject: Re: Injuries, the real legacy of the Alderson era?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 10:35 am 
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Built the team that saw the first WS appearance in 15 years and only 5th appearance in the organizations 50+ year history. Seems like a pretty solid legacy to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Injuries, the real legacy of the Alderson era?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 10:45 am 
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Ralf wrote:
Built the team that saw the first WS appearance in 15 years and only 5th appearance in the organizations 50+ year history. Seems like a pretty solid legacy to me.


Yup, his plaque fits nicely next to Steve Phillips'.


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 Post subject: Re: Injuries, the real legacy of the Alderson era?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 10:49 am 
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HeyNowHK wrote:
It's almost Trumpian when some people indicate that 'only Sandy Alderson can fix this' given the ownership structure. I can't accept that SA is the only person who can stand down JeffW


Yeah - the one year Jim Duquette era somehow portends the next era of Met baseball more than the Steve Phillips or Omar Minaya eras, neither of whom are considered best and the brightest, and both of whom equaled the successes of the Sandy "Wilpon Whisperer" Alderson Era.


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 Post subject: Re: Injuries, the real legacy of the Alderson era?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 10:50 am 
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Ralf wrote:
Built the team that saw the first WS appearance in 15 years and only 5th appearance in the organizations 50+ year history. Seems like a pretty solid legacy to me.


It was a wasteland when Sandy got here and by all appearances, will be again when he leaves. Like HK said, that's a Steve Phillips-like legacy.


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 Post subject: Re: Injuries, the real legacy of the Alderson era?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:35 am 
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MarkJohnson>You wrote:
Ralf wrote:
Built the team that saw the first WS appearance in 15 years and only 5th appearance in the organizations 50+ year history. Seems like a pretty solid legacy to me.


Yup, his plaque fits nicely next to Steve Phillips'.


It does. Phillips was a great GM. He got us an iconic hall of fame player and put together exciting teams. 1997-2002 was a great time to be a Mets fan.

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 Post subject: Re: Injuries, the real legacy of the Alderson era?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:44 am 
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Disco Ball wrote:
Ralf wrote:
Built the team that saw the first WS appearance in 15 years and only 5th appearance in the organizations 50+ year history. Seems like a pretty solid legacy to me.


It was a wasteland when Sandy got here and by all appearances, will be again when he leaves. Like HK said, that's a Steve Phillips-like legacy.


Lol, talk about hyperbole.

The organization is fine. The foundation for the major league team is there. The only thing a new GM would have to do is supplement the talent on the roster.

LF Ces
RF Conforto
SS Rosario
1B Smith

SP Thor
SP deGrom

Thats a good core group. Not to mention Nimmo, TJ and Flores are good cheap complementary pieces. Very few teams have a good catcher. They just need a 3B, 2B and CF. That seems pretty easy to do IF ownership opens that mothball infested wallet.

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 Post subject: Re: Injuries, the real legacy of the Alderson era?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:49 am 
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MarkJohnson>You wrote:
HeyNowHK wrote:
It's almost Trumpian when some people indicate that 'only Sandy Alderson can fix this' given the ownership structure. I can't accept that SA is the only person who can stand down JeffW


Yeah - the one year Jim Duquette era somehow portends the next era of Met baseball more than the Steve Phillips or Omar Minaya eras, neither of whom are considered best and the brightest, and both of whom equaled the successes of the Sandy "Wilpon Whisperer" Alderson Era.


O come on. This is ridiculous. We literally have a perfect example of how the Wilpons operate when they remove a baseball guy and install a patsy. Those were some of the most embarrassing years this franchise has seen since 1980.

Keep pretending that once Sandy leaves they'll hire some young gun to take over and wheel and deal. Thats puer fantasy. Its going to be Ricco and the puppet master Jeff Wilpon.

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 Post subject: Re: Injuries, the real legacy of the Alderson era?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:56 am 
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Ralf wrote:

O come on. This is ridiculous. We literally have a perfect example of how the Wilpons operate when they remove a baseball guy and install a patsy. Those were some of the most embarrassing years this franchise has seen since 1980.


Once again, it was ONE YEAR - Jim Duquette was the GM here for ONE YEAR. And immediately surrounding him, with the Wilpons in charge sans Doubleday, you had the Phillips and Minaya eras, which essentially mirror the Alderson era. I should mention, Phillips and Minaya were also just internal guys promoted (well, Minaya by way of his time in Montreal, but still), so even if the "Ricco will just be promoted" thing comes true, there's no reason other than to push a narrative about Sandy is the only guy to "Make the Mets Great Again" to equate Ricco more to Duquette than to Phillips or Minaya.

Again, the fact is that Sandy's ultimate success/failure ratio (if he were to depart this offseason) looks exactly the same as the last 2 GMs here (yes, ignoring the ONE YEAR Jim Duquette era, which took us exactly 1 year to dig out from under).

And again, nobody would argue Philips or Minaya was of the upper echelon of front office minds. So the bar isn't even that high for someone to be able to find success here. God forbid we get surprised and do get someone of that upper echelon...


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 Post subject: Re: Injuries, the real legacy of the Alderson era?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:03 pm 
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Ralf wrote:
Disco Ball wrote:
Ralf wrote:
Built the team that saw the first WS appearance in 15 years and only 5th appearance in the organizations 50+ year history. Seems like a pretty solid legacy to me.


It was a wasteland when Sandy got here and by all appearances, will be again when he leaves. Like HK said, that's a Steve Phillips-like legacy.


Lol, talk about hyperbole.

The organization is fine. The foundation for the major league team is there. The only thing a new GM would have to do is supplement the talent on the roster.

LF Ces
RF Conforto
SS Rosario
1B Smith

SP Thor
SP deGrom

Thats a good core group. Not to mention Nimmo, TJ and Flores are good cheap complementary pieces. Very few teams have a good catcher. They just need a 3B, 2B and CF. That seems pretty easy to do IF ownership opens that mothball infested wallet.

Expecting Rosario and Smith to be highly performing core pieces of a playoff team as soon as 2018 is giving in to the hype I think. And this is not to mention that 3 of the 6 players you cite will be coming off of major injuries. It's really hard to say that things are set up for success in 2018. Really hard. IMO.


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