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 Post subject: Re: August 30, IGT (agaist a pitcher named Homer)
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:16 am 
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MarkJohnson>You wrote:
Travis d'Arnaud is turning 29 this offseason, and has been given (by the time this year is out) 1,500 PA in his physical prime during which, when healthy, he has been unchallenged for a "starter's share" of the job (by today's "starting catcher" jobload standards). He has not lacked for opportunities, or been shuffled around, or sent on the Vegas shuttle.

He has been given 600 PA in his 27/28 age seasons and proceeded to put up a 26% below league average line.

If he is not feeling confident, its because despite his myriad of opportunities, he has consistently failed to live up to the standard of the job he has been given, and left unchallenged in. There's no outside forces conspiring against him. There's no question of lack of stability forcing him not know what to expect when he comes to the ballpark.

This narrative needs to die. He was a highly thought of prospect who has not lived up to expectations - he is not inconsistent. He is consistently poor. If he goes and finds success elsewhere, fine, but that won't be because the Mets screwed him or messed him up. It'll be because he has natural talent (obviously) that took way longer than the Mets could have been expected to give him to let it show up.


Montero and Plawecki, as much as I still don't think there's much there with either - are not the same animals. Neither of those guys have been given an extended run in any way mirroring what TdA has been given. There is a legitimate talking point on each that says they're still in the "small sample size' portion of their big league careers, despite what seems like forever ago when we first saw them, because they HAVE been sent down, had roles reduced, been told they weren't good enough, etc.

These are completely different circumstances.


This is pretty fair. I'll say this:

1) If Conforto was treated exactly as TDA was (and he wasn't treated ideally, per me, as we know), he would have overcome it. TDA hasn't and that's on TDA.

2) That said, TDA isn't the player we see, particularly this year. We'll never prove what the reasons for that are. If TDA goes somewhere else and hits as I expect him to, it may lead credence to my point but will never prove it. If he doesn't, it won't disprove my point (maybe his confidence never recovers) or definitively prove yours / everyone else's :).

I would have just like to have seen him treated differently. And w/o my flux capacitor to change things, I just hope he's given a bit of a longer leash.


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 Post subject: Re: August 30, IGT (agaist a pitcher named Homer)
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:17 am 
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Take a look at d'Arnaud's splits this year for each spot in the batting order. Pretty funny

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 Post subject: Re: August 30, IGT (agaist a pitcher named Homer)
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:19 am 
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TomInNC wrote:
Take a look at d'Arnaud's splits this year for each spot in the batting order. Pretty funny


I can guess but I'd like to see you chart his hitting pre and post the New York Post's "Met's tell Travis time to stop being mediocre" article.


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 Post subject: Re: August 30, IGT (agaist a pitcher named Homer)
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:21 am 
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What date the the article appear?

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 Post subject: Re: August 30, IGT (agaist a pitcher named Homer)
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:22 am 
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SergioTheLittleMan wrote:
2) That said, TDA isn't the player we see, particularly this year. We'll never prove what the reasons for that are. If TDA goes somewhere else and hits as I expect him to, it may lead credence to my point but will never prove it. If he doesn't, it won't disprove my point (maybe his confidence never recovers) or definitively prove yours / everyone else's :).


So basically, you're right no matter what.


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 Post subject: Re: August 30, IGT (agaist a pitcher named Homer)
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:22 am 
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TomInNC wrote:
Take a look at d'Arnaud's splits this year for each spot in the batting order. Pretty funny


Not even close

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 Post subject: Re: August 30, IGT (agaist a pitcher named Homer)
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:22 am 
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SergioTheLittleMan wrote:
TomInNC wrote:
Take a look at d'Arnaud's splits this year for each spot in the batting order. Pretty funny


I can guess but I'd like to see you chart his hitting pre and post the New York Post's "Met's tell Travis time to stop being mediocre" article.


August 9.


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 Post subject: Re: August 30, IGT (agaist a pitcher named Homer)
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:25 am 
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HeyNowHK wrote:
SergioTheLittleMan wrote:
2) That said, TDA isn't the player we see, particularly this year. We'll never prove what the reasons for that are. If TDA goes somewhere else and hits as I expect him to, it may lead credence to my point but will never prove it. If he doesn't, it won't disprove my point (maybe his confidence never recovers) or definitively prove yours / everyone else's :).


So basically, you're right no matter what.


I know you're a big-time poster here and I'm, purportedly, a "troll" (no, I'm not) but you do this same thing time-after-time. Am I the only one who notices it?


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 Post subject: Re: August 30, IGT (agaist a pitcher named Homer)
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:33 am 
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Let's all assume that we have no desire to change our positions on TDA, and move onto other topics that are a bit less dead horsey....

Please.

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 Post subject: Re: August 30, IGT (agaist a pitcher named Homer)
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:54 am 
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SergioTheLittleMan wrote:
SergioTheLittleMan wrote:
TomInNC wrote:
Take a look at d'Arnaud's splits this year for each spot in the batting order. Pretty funny


I can guess but I'd like to see you chart his hitting pre and post the New York Post's "Met's tell Travis time to stop being mediocre" article.


August 9.


I got suspicious when Tom didn't reply back, so I checked myself.

Before Aug 9: .240 / .291 / 428 (granted, nothing to write home about)
Aug 9 - Aug 29: .185 / 211 / .241

For what it's worth, I didn't know the answer ahead of time. In fact, when Tom asked for the date, I was thinking of the old attorney's maxim "never ask a witness a question for which you don't already know the answer" and thought the answer could be contrary to my point.

But it's not. When you tell a struggling guy (for whatever reason) "it's now or never", publicly even, it's not surprising things get worse. Sure, some people respond to that pressure better than others. But it would be great if the motivation strategy employed would be more individually tailored. I just think that NY Post brilliance was further mismanagement of TDA's career, which, again, isn't to say that TDA isn't also responsible for the actual results.

Anyhow, it's not surprising that TDA has hit worse up in the order in this context. I can see how you might think that is me "moving the goalpost" but my goalpost is simply "help build this kid's confidence" and calling him out in the NY Post isn't helpful in that regard.

EDIT: Sorry, I'm on board JDawg.


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 Post subject: Re: August 30, IGT (agaist a pitcher named Homer)
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:04 pm 
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SergioTheLittleMan wrote:
HeyNowHK wrote:
SergioTheLittleMan wrote:
2) That said, TDA isn't the player we see, particularly this year. We'll never prove what the reasons for that are. If TDA goes somewhere else and hits as I expect him to, it may lead credence to my point but will never prove it. If he doesn't, it won't disprove my point (maybe his confidence never recovers) or definitively prove yours / everyone else's :).


So basically, you're right no matter what.


I know you're a big-time poster here and I'm, purportedly, a "troll" (no, I'm not) but you do this same thing time-after-time. Am I the only one who notices it?


First, I never called you a troll (that I can recall). In fact, I've said that I hope you post more (while letting the TDA and Scooter crusades go). I meant that. But I don't know what thing you're referring to here.

You said if TDA gets an opportunity elsewhere and doesn't hit like you expect him to, it won't mean that you were wrong about him. Doesn't that mean your conclusion about him is no longer dependent on his results? And so this "confidence" diagnosis can never be disproved. That's what the above reads to me. If that's the case, why are we still discussing it?

Normally, when people make calls on players, teams or events, there are eventually results which can be lined up with the predictions. The ability to quantify most things in baseball is one of the things that prob attracts many people to this sport. Sometimes people are proved right; sometimes they are proved wrong and they move on. Sure, there are the more existential debates that drag on for generations (ie: ownership's effect on the team) and get heated, and likewise when you cite esoteric forces that work against said players, you can claim never to be wrong about such a thing and drag out the talking point into a tedious crusade if so inclined.


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 Post subject: Re: August 30, IGT (agaist a pitcher named Homer)
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:12 pm 
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Now "stop being mediocre" is a slam at one's confidence? Seems like it would be the opposite to me. He's obviously been mediocre for a while, and that remark should be a clear indication that they believe he can be better than that. I would take it as a shot in the arm. But given what the results were, it's clear that it will be used as more fuel for this particular crusade.


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