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 Post subject: Re: IGT - @ Fish 9/18
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:07 pm 
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Look, there was no reason to keep any of the trade-offs. We weren't going to win this year, and none were under contract for next. The return was intriguing in several places.

The real indictment will be in what they do/not do this offseason. Completely agree that they should be skewered if they do nothing to improve the team and sit on cash. Hurt them at the gate.

I do not expect any of Conforto, Cespedes, Dom, Amed, Nimmo to be stars next years. I do expect them to be productive. I also expect Thor, Wheeler, maybe Matz to have a bit of a bounceback.

The mistakes will once again lie in not having plan Bs and Cs.

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 Post subject: Re: IGT - @ Fish 9/18
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:13 pm 
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The issue is.. even if they add some "decent" fill-in type players (lets be realistic they aren't going after premium stars there is almost NOTHING in AAA that is going to be helping them next year (on paper). Don't give me "Guillorme could replace Reynolds!" type of additions. Who would even be the top 5 prospects in AA/AAA next season? Assuming Dunn repeats A+ (and c'mon given his season nobody could pencil him in as 2018 help) we are looking at what? Alonso (Dom blocks him or he replaces/platoons with Dom) and then...Guillorme? Oswalt? Nido? Molina? Thompson? That's the BEST talent we have opening in AA/AAA.

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 Post subject: Re: IGT - @ Fish 9/18
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:25 pm 
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TomInNC wrote:
Come on!! I've been getting sold on the tank since game 53 or so. Trade off the older guys, bring in younger talent. Retool in the off season with all the money off the books and compete in 2018.

You mean this isn't really happening? I'm shocked. SHOCKED I tell you.


Some of these people here should consider careers in politics. :^o


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 Post subject: Re: IGT - @ Fish 9/18
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:53 pm 
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Lots of pessimism here and I understand that....

I am somewhere in the middle. I really think Harvey is being auditioned NOW for his contract tender...and he is absolutely FAILING. Horrible FO or not, they aren't downright stupid. That $6 million IS important and either they pay it to a Harvey who is serviceable or they go elsewhere THIS WINTER. It's not like Harvey will be around past 2018, any which way.

I DO see the Mets doing some free agent work this winter. Perhaps the only adds to the offensive players may be Neil Walker and Curtis Granderson, with a possible re-signing of Jose Reyes (Cabrera will be extended). On the pitching side, I see a mid-level starter and one mid-level relief pitcher being signed. And yes, we will be praying for some comebacks from the likes of Thor, Matz and Wheeler.

Will that be a good team? I don't know but it may be. It is what it is.


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 Post subject: Re: IGT - @ Fish 9/18
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:35 pm 
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I seriously doubt anyone here is more anti-Harvey than me. I've wanted him traded every day since his first douchey interview in 2012.

That said, the idea that Harvey is totally shot because he's been horrible in a few starts after coming back from TOS surgery is as ludicrous as whatever brilliant poster declared the Dom Smith era over after 4 games. I'm not saying he's not shot - maybe he is - but what's happened in the past few starts don't prove it.


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 Post subject: Re: IGT - @ Fish 9/18
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:28 pm 
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SergioTheLittleMan wrote:
I seriously doubt anyone here is more anti-Harvey than me. I've wanted him traded every day since his first douchey interview in 2012.

That said, the idea that Harvey is totally shot because he's been horrible in a few starts after coming back from TOS surgery is as ludicrous as whatever brilliant poster declared the Dom Smith era over after 4 games. I'm not saying he's not shot - maybe he is - but what's happened in the past few starts don't prove it.

Hitting is not like pitching tho. A very good hitter can still have an 0-30 spell. A ML pitcher repeatedly getting shelled every start for the better part of a season isn't a ML pitcher. This is not about just 2 starts.

By my count, of the 17 starts he made this year, 4 would qualify as quality starts, 5 were meh where he didn't get shelled but didn't make it out of the 5th inning, and 8 starts he absolutely got shelled.


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 Post subject: Re: IGT - @ Fish 9/18
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:41 pm 
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HeyNowHK wrote:
SergioTheLittleMan wrote:
I seriously doubt anyone here is more anti-Harvey than me. I've wanted him traded every day since his first douchey interview in 2012.

That said, the idea that Harvey is totally shot because he's been horrible in a few starts after coming back from TOS surgery is as ludicrous as whatever brilliant poster declared the Dom Smith era over after 4 games. I'm not saying he's not shot - maybe he is - but what's happened in the past few starts don't prove it.

Hitting is not like pitching tho. A very good hitter can still have an 0-30 spell. A ML pitcher repeatedly getting shelled every start for the better part of a season isn't a ML pitcher. This is not about just 2 starts.

By my count, of the 17 starts he made this year, 4 would qualify as quality starts, 5 were meh where he didn't get shelled but didn't make it out of the 5th inning, and 8 starts he absolutely got shelled.


Between 2016-17 he's got a 5.68 ERA and 1.56 WHIP over 34 starts and 177 innings.

I'm afraid that's the pitcher he is. I hope to be proven wrong in 2018 but he has literally shown no signs of bouncing back.


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 Post subject: Re: IGT - @ Fish 9/18
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:26 pm 
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I think a healthy winter will do Harvey well. I also think a pitcher in their walk year, at an Arby number around 2017 is worth the risk...

On the other hand, I could see them being done with him...then I imagine they would replace him with a slightly less good Colon...Chacin type.

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 Post subject: Re: IGT - @ Fish 9/18
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:28 pm 
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dragonfly wrote:
HeyNowHK wrote:
SergioTheLittleMan wrote:
I seriously doubt anyone here is more anti-Harvey than me. I've wanted him traded every day since his first douchey interview in 2012.

That said, the idea that Harvey is totally shot because he's been horrible in a few starts after coming back from TOS surgery is as ludicrous as whatever brilliant poster declared the Dom Smith era over after 4 games. I'm not saying he's not shot - maybe he is - but what's happened in the past few starts don't prove it.

Hitting is not like pitching tho. A very good hitter can still have an 0-30 spell. A ML pitcher repeatedly getting shelled every start for the better part of a season isn't a ML pitcher. This is not about just 2 starts.

By my count, of the 17 starts he made this year, 4 would qualify as quality starts, 5 were meh where he didn't get shelled but didn't make it out of the 5th inning, and 8 starts he absolutely got shelled.


Between 2016-17 he's got a 5.68 ERA and 1.56 WHIP over 34 starts and 177 innings.

I'm afraid that's the pitcher he is. I hope to be proven wrong in 2018 but he has literally shown no signs of bouncing back.


You're both correct. I somehow spaced out on everything that happened earlier this year and last year. Not sure what I was thinking.

But ... you could argue that those earlier starts were with the physical issue that has since, theoretically, been corrected and that we've only had a few starts with the "New Harvey."


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 Post subject: Re: IGT - @ Fish 9/18
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:43 am 
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Picking up the Harvey topic, guys on the BP podcast discussed the notion of it costing some $20M to pick up Harvey/ACab/Aoki this winter. They were pretty critical of this concept.

If I were to forecast this, the first tell would seem to be whether or not they let Collins go. If they do let Collins go, it would signify they are open to going in a new direction I think. If otoh, we hear they "are working on a new deal" when the season ends, then it's prob safe to assume we will see the whole band getting back together (Reyes, ACab, Harvey, Aoki).


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 Post subject: Re: IGT - @ Fish 9/18
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:54 am 
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HeyNowHK wrote:
Picking up the Harvey topic, guys on the BP podcast discussed the notion of it costing some $20M to pick up Harvey/ACab/Aoki this winter. They were pretty critical of this concept.

If I were to forecast this, the first tell would seem to be whether or not they let Collins go. If they do let Collins go, it would signify they are open to going in a new direction I think. If otoh, we hear they "are working on a new deal" when the season ends, then it's prob safe to assume we will see the whole band getting back together (Reyes, ACab, Harvey, Aoki).


I disagree. Collins was planning on stepping down 2 off-seasons ago and spoke about it privately before this season. I don't think Collins has ANY impact on the 2018 plans one way or another. I don't see it as any signal of what they will/won't do talent wise. You are looking for signals that aren't there. They didn't even approach TC about a contract. He's gone. They will likely let him "retire". Whatever player moves they make will have nothing to do with this.

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