MESSAGE BOARDS TOOLS:  Search | Members | User Control Panel |   | Login 


All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]

Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 27 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Harper kills a Sandy fallacy
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:15 pm 
Offline
Blue Chipper

Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2017 3:38 pm
Posts: 461
I think it's silly to complain about the lack of Murphys and Dudas in the system right now (regarding their draft position). Sure, this office has a pretty bad track record with college bats at this point, but getting stars in the 12th round isn't the norm and we shouldn't necessarily expect it.

It's tough to build a contender through the draft alone, especially when you're not getting Top 5 picks. That's why FA exists. Complaining about drafting is just a smart distraction off the Wilpons.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Harper kills a Sandy fallacy
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:32 pm 
Offline
General Manager

Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 3:45 pm
Posts: 7464
But there are those here who don't want us spending money on FA either

_________________
Sell EVERYTHING. Sell Sell Sell
Yes this is necessary.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Harper kills a Sandy fallacy
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:23 pm 
User avatar
Online
All Star

Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:14 am
Posts: 2415
Hot Takes wrote:
I think it's silly to complain about the lack of Murphys and Dudas in the system right now (regarding their draft position). Sure, this office has a pretty bad track record with college bats at this point, but getting stars in the 12th round isn't the norm and we shouldn't necessarily expect it.

It's tough to build a contender through the draft alone, especially when you're not getting Top 5 picks. That's why FA exists. Complaining about drafting is just a smart distraction off the Wilpons.


The problem with the Mets is that they are getting horrible players in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. I understand striking out in the 12th round but you need to get a few hits or something in the higher rounds. The guys they are getting (aside from Alonso) are struggling in A ball and that's something that really shouldn't happen no matter how bad the hitting environment might be. And Andrew Church.....ugh. Teams like the Cardinals are getting results from players they are drafting late. The Mets are not. There is obviously a problem with the scouting department.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Harper kills a Sandy fallacy
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:22 am 
Offline
Blue Chipper

Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2017 3:38 pm
Posts: 461
I had a long post typed out listing the Cardinals' 2nd round picks over the past ten years but decided that it was too long and boring and no one would read it.

But the conclusion was that their best 2nd round pick over that stretch is Carson Kelly, their current #2 prospect. The rest are either guys who didn't reach the majors, didn't have an impact in the majors, or are middling prospects.

The draft is a crap shoot. Sure, it's easy to second guess certain picks in hindsight, and some drafts may not turn out well, but we've had our fair share of later-round success in the past, and it's still to early to judge most Sandy drafts.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Harper kills a Sandy fallacy
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:26 am 
Offline
Blue Chipper

Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2017 3:38 pm
Posts: 461
Except 2014. That draft, outside of Conforto, sucked.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Harper kills a Sandy fallacy
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:49 pm 
Offline
Legend of NYFS

Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:09 am
Posts: 12894
Location: Somebody's stolen my avatar
Hot Takes wrote:
I had a long post typed out listing the Cardinals' 2nd round picks over the past ten years but decided that it was too long and boring and no one would read it.

But the conclusion was that their best 2nd round pick over that stretch is Carson Kelly, their current #2 prospect. The rest are either guys who didn't reach the majors, didn't have an impact in the majors, or are middling prospects.

The draft is a crap shoot. Sure, it's easy to second guess certain picks in hindsight, and some drafts may not turn out well, but we've had our fair share of later-round success in the past, and it's still to early to judge most Sandy drafts.


That's my observation as well. There's a lot of misses in the draft. If there is an overall draft strategy that might work, I like the Cubs strategy of drafting hitters (better odds at staying healthy) and trading for pitchers. Ofcourse, if everyone uses the same strategy it stops working

_________________
2018 Mets vs 2017 Mets. Battle of the bums. Who wins?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Harper kills a Sandy fallacy
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:27 pm 
User avatar
Online
All Star

Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:14 am
Posts: 2415
LTKfRGM wrote:
Hot Takes wrote:
I had a long post typed out listing the Cardinals' 2nd round picks over the past ten years but decided that it was too long and boring and no one would read it.

But the conclusion was that their best 2nd round pick over that stretch is Carson Kelly, their current #2 prospect. The rest are either guys who didn't reach the majors, didn't have an impact in the majors, or are middling prospects.

The draft is a crap shoot. Sure, it's easy to second guess certain picks in hindsight, and some drafts may not turn out well, but we've had our fair share of later-round success in the past, and it's still to early to judge most Sandy drafts.


That's my observation as well. There's a lot of misses in the draft. If there is an overall draft strategy that might work, I like the Cubs strategy of drafting hitters (better odds at staying healthy) and trading for pitchers. Ofcourse, if everyone uses the same strategy it stops working


The problem is after you draft them you have to develop them and the Mets have been pretty bad at developing bats for a while now. Prospects 1500 released the Yankees top 50 prospects today and it seems like almost every arm they have throws 95+ MPH with several guys hitting 100 MPH. Personally if you are not going to spend on free agents then you have to pump money into scouting and you should start by poaching scouts from the Yankees and Dodgers. And I know you are seriously going to have to over pay them to keep them from their teams who have big pockets but dang you have to do something. The Yanks have set themselves up to win for a very long time and eventually thats going to cripple the Mets even more financially.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Harper kills a Sandy fallacy
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:53 pm 
User avatar
Offline
NYFS Staff

Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:37 am
Posts: 24338
Location: charleston, sc
Harper back-tracked anyhow.

_________________
"The most potent weapon of the oppressor is the mind of the oppressed." Steven Biko


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Harper kills a Sandy fallacy
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:01 pm 
Offline
Legend of NYFS

Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:09 am
Posts: 12894
Location: Somebody's stolen my avatar
piazzafan wrote:

The problem is after you draft them you have to develop them and the Mets have been pretty bad at developing bats for a while now. Prospects 1500 released the Yankees top 50 prospects today and it seems like almost every arm they have throws 95+ MPH with several guys hitting 100 MPH. Personally if you are not going to spend on free agents then you have to pump money into scouting and you should start by poaching scouts from the Yankees and Dodgers. And I know you are seriously going to have to over pay them to keep them from their teams who have big pockets but dang you have to do something. The Yanks have set themselves up to win for a very long time and eventually thats going to cripple the Mets even more financially.


I think most would agree that the Yanks have drafted better than most teams. They've probably spent a lot more on scouting than average too.

They've also worked the system, getting players like Granderson, then offering him a QO and getting a compensation pick in return. Since the new system went in place they probably got more compensation picks than any other team. And lets not forget the 40 million they spent on the international market one year.

So, yes, they drafted well, but they had other advantges in their corner.

_________________
2018 Mets vs 2017 Mets. Battle of the bums. Who wins?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Harper kills a Sandy fallacy
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:24 pm 
User avatar
Online
All Star

Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:14 am
Posts: 2415
LTKfRGM wrote:
piazzafan wrote:

The problem is after you draft them you have to develop them and the Mets have been pretty bad at developing bats for a while now. Prospects 1500 released the Yankees top 50 prospects today and it seems like almost every arm they have throws 95+ MPH with several guys hitting 100 MPH. Personally if you are not going to spend on free agents then you have to pump money into scouting and you should start by poaching scouts from the Yankees and Dodgers. And I know you are seriously going to have to over pay them to keep them from their teams who have big pockets but dang you have to do something. The Yanks have set themselves up to win for a very long time and eventually thats going to cripple the Mets even more financially.


I think most would agree that the Yanks have drafted better than most teams. They've probably spent a lot more on scouting than average too.

They've also worked the system, getting players like Granderson, then offering him a QO and getting a compensation pick in return. Since the new system went in place they probably got more compensation picks than any other team. And lets not forget the 40 million they spent on the international market one year.

So, yes, they drafted well, but they had other advantges in their corner.


The Mets had the same opportunites to work the system. They chose not and now have to deal with their cross town rivals setting themselves up for 10 more years of success. But like I said before they need to start poaching top level scouts and coaches. And it also wouldn't be a bad idea to move on from the extreme pitchers parks they have in the minors. Or at least tweak them to make them more hitter friendly in order to help the bats out a little.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Harper kills a Sandy fallacy
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:00 pm 
User avatar
Online
Legend of NYFS

Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:56 pm
Posts: 61002
Hot Takes wrote:
I had a long post typed out listing the Cardinals' 2nd round picks over the past ten years but decided that it was too long and boring and no one would read it.

But the conclusion was that their best 2nd round pick over that stretch is Carson Kelly, their current #2 prospect. The rest are either guys who didn't reach the majors, didn't have an impact in the majors, or are middling prospects.

The draft is a crap shoot. Sure, it's easy to second guess certain picks in hindsight, and some drafts may not turn out well, but we've had our fair share of later-round success in the past, and it's still to early to judge most Sandy drafts.


Why limit it to the 2nd round? Sure each pick individually is a crap shoot - no one denies that. Thats why a plan centered solely around building through amateur talent acquisition (and development) can't work - need to at least be opportunistic in trades.

But thats also why you get 40 shots at it. If we're sticking with the Cards, look at the Cards 2nd - 20th round picks and compare them to ours. In there you'll find:

Matt Carpenter (13)
Paul deJong (4)
Tommy Pham (16)
Lance Lynn (supplemental)
Tyler Lyons (9)
Trevor Rosenthal (21)
Matt Adams (23)

Plus all sorts of early round picks they actually hit on, like Wacha, Piscotty, Wong, Weaver, etc. Even if those guys have different degrees of actual success, thats better than the Gavin cecchinis of the world.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Harper kills a Sandy fallacy
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:22 pm 
User avatar
Online
All Star

Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:14 am
Posts: 2415
MarkJohnson>You wrote:
Hot Takes wrote:
I had a long post typed out listing the Cardinals' 2nd round picks over the past ten years but decided that it was too long and boring and no one would read it.

But the conclusion was that their best 2nd round pick over that stretch is Carson Kelly, their current #2 prospect. The rest are either guys who didn't reach the majors, didn't have an impact in the majors, or are middling prospects.

The draft is a crap shoot. Sure, it's easy to second guess certain picks in hindsight, and some drafts may not turn out well, but we've had our fair share of later-round success in the past, and it's still to early to judge most Sandy drafts.


Why limit it to the 2nd round? Sure each pick individually is a crap shoot - no one denies that. Thats why a plan centered solely around building through amateur talent acquisition (and development) can't work - need to at least be opportunistic in trades.

But thats also why you get 40 shots at it. If we're sticking with the Cards, look at the Cards 2nd - 20th round picks and compare them to ours. In there you'll find:

Matt Carpenter (13)
Paul deJong (4)
Tommy Pham (16)
Lance Lynn (supplemental)
Tyler Lyons (9)
Trevor Rosenthal (21)
Matt Adams (23)

Plus all sorts of early round picks they actually hit on, like Wacha, Piscotty, Wong, Weaver, etc. Even if those guys have different degrees of actual success, thats better than the Gavin cecchinis of the world.


And don't forget about Allan Craig who had a nice run with them before his decline. They are doing something right.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 27 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Asbury Mark, Bing [Bot], bklyndave69, Daaaarryyl, HeyNowHK, Laxin, Majestic-12 [Bot], MarkJohnson>You, Mavericknyc1980, MetsWhiz93, MetVendor, monkeysuncle, nocedog, piazzafan, RedStorm, Shiloh, sluger11787, tdawg14, zaknim and 176 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group


FIND AN AA MEETING | SUICIDE DEPRESSION ADDICTION HELP | BOOK REVIEWS EDITORIAL BEST SELLERS | LOCAL DOCTORS HOSPITAL EMERGENCY CARE | LOCAL LIVE MUSIC OPEN MIC JAM | FIND YOUR CONGRESSMAN AND WHERE TO VOTE | WOMEN VETERANS HELP SUPPORT | PET FRIENDLY PARKS HOTELS | SOLAR WIND RENEWABLE POWER | FILE TAX RETURN ATTORNEY | 4G SEO SMART PHONES TABLET WEB | BIRTHDAY PARTY RENTAL CHARACTERS | HOMES APARTMENTS FOR SALE OR RENT | SPORT COURT GYM FITNESS CLUB TRACK FIELD | GET HEALTH LIFE AUTO HOME INSURANCE QUOTE | VETERAN TIPS ON CRAFT DIY RECIPES | FIND ATM BRANCH CONSOLIDATION STUDENT CREDIT LOAN RATES | LOCAL NEWS AND RSS FEEDS | CHRISTMAS BLACK FRIDAY BACK TO SCHOOL SALE | LATEST E NEWS ON MOVIES TV GAMES GIFTS BOOKS | LAST MINUTE ANNIVERSARY BIRTHDAY HOUSE WARMING GIFTS | LOCAL ARTS CRAFTS SUPPLY STORE | LOCAL LINKS TO RESTAURANTS AIRPORTS DRUG STORES | DRUG OXY OPIATE ALCOHOL PHYSICAL REHAB LOCAL NEW OR USED BOOK STORE | KNICKS BLOG FORUM BOARDS | © Untraditional Media