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 Post subject: Re: T Minus ? Countdown to Cespedes implosion has begun
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:52 pm 
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SergioTheLittleMan wrote:
northway wrote:
I'll file this thread away with the one guaranteeing that d'Arnaud was going to be an All-Star in 2017 because some people just know their hunches will come true.


Ok, but I'll bump it when the implosion happens.


I thought the implosion already started?

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 Post subject: Re: T Minus ? Countdown to Cespedes implosion has begun
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:52 pm 
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Hilltop wrote:
Admittedly this a bit out there.....

But if Cespedes doesn't run out a few fly balls yet it lets him remain healthy enough to play in 150 games, I'm all for it.


To me, if I'm making this argument, I'm making it on behalf of someone with a greater than .826 OPS.


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 Post subject: Re: T Minus ? Countdown to Cespedes implosion has begun
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:01 pm 
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SergioTheLittleMan wrote:
northway wrote:
SergioTheLittleMan wrote:

Ok, but I'll bump it when the implosion happens.


The obnoxious thing about drive-bys like this is that they only get bumped when they work out in the poster's favor.


So ... I should bump it every time he doesn't implode?

This is admittedly getting tired, but isn't the point to establish the relative importance of any said "implosion?" If YC is otherwise one of the more productive Mets, and there is some "implosion" by whatever standard you make that term, the expectation is that it will be far out-weighed by his contributions to the team... no? There are obviously no perfect players. Otherwise, this is purely a personal vendetta ride you are taking everyone on.


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 Post subject: Re: T Minus ? Countdown to Cespedes implosion has begun
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:03 pm 
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SergioTheLittleMan wrote:
Hilltop wrote:
Admittedly this a bit out there.....

But if Cespedes doesn't run out a few fly balls yet it lets him remain healthy enough to play in 150 games, I'm all for it.


To me, if I'm making this argument, I'm making it on behalf of someone with a greater than .826 OPS.


2015 August to playoffs makes my point just fine. And the team imploded last season offensively.


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 Post subject: Re: T Minus ? Countdown to Cespedes implosion has begun
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:09 pm 
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SergioTheLittleMan wrote:
northway wrote:
SergioTheLittleMan wrote:
BTW, remind me why Cespedes refuses to play right field?


Because he's not comfortable there and advanced analytics support the notion that right and left field are more or less equal on the defensive spectrum?


So ... the team believed that the team overall would be better with him in right but he can just say "no" and that's ok with you? Would it have been equally ok if TDA refused to play 3rd when needed last year? How about if Reyes refuses to take reps in the outfield? Remind how Astrubal's infield preference went over?

Or are there just different rules for 24 vs 1?


I'm pretty okay with guys acknowledging that they're bad enough at something that they shouldn't be doing it, yeah, but regardless, these are all false equivalencies.

TDA wasn't being turned into a third baseman, evidenced by the fact that he accumulated 5.2 utterly forgettable innings at the position. Reyes was signed as a utility guy with some outfield reps being in the cards in advance. Asdrubal was signed for his ostensible veteran leadership and team-first attitude (along with some positional flexibility), all of which went out the window the moment Rosario started nipping at his heels. Moreover, Cabrera was horrendous at short, and the move was to a less demanding defensive position (which he was also horrendous at).

Cespedes, on the other hand, was signed by the Mets with the team knowing that he did not ever want to play right field, something he has made abundantly clear over the years. This isn't the same as the TDA situation, as it's a matter of his moving positions entirely. It's not the same as the Reyes situation, as Cespedes is still in the prime of his career - being amongst the baseball's highest paid players - and is meant to start every day, not move around the diamond. It's not the same as the Cabrera situation, as we knew that he didn't want to play right field prior to signing, and it's not as if his playing in left versus right makes a lick of difference as it pertains to young players having a spot or not.

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 Post subject: Re: T Minus ? Countdown to Cespedes implosion has begun
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:23 pm 
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So I guess he's just like massively talented but somehow genetically bad at RF and would be even if given additional reps, etc. It sucks when things work out like that, particularly with a guy with a cannon for an arm. But who can argue with the gods, I guess. And, I for one, would not him to play in a position where he's uncomfortable for $110 million even if the team thought it would lead to more wins because, you know, gotta keep him happy to get our 30-35 HRS and "amongst baseball's highest paid players" and priorities and stuff. Now I can understand why Piazza refused to try 1B!


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 Post subject: Re: T Minus ? Countdown to Cespedes implosion has begun
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:38 pm 
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SergioTheLittleMan wrote:
So I guess he's just like massively talented but somehow genetically bad at RF and would be even if given additional reps, etc. It sucks when things work out like that, particularly with a guy with a cannon for an arm. But who can argue with the gods, I guess. And, I for one, would not him to play in a position where he's uncomfortable for $110 million even if the team thought it would lead to more wins because, you know, gotta keep him happy to get our 30-35 HRS and "amongst baseball's highest paid players" and priorities and stuff. Now I can understand why Piazza refused to try 1B!


Where did you ever get this?

At what point did the Mets say "Cespedes needs to play RF because our team has guys who are better in LF and CF but can't play RF?" This scenario not only hasn't happened, but he's a gold glover in LF, and also willingly played CENTER FIELD here at the team's request for a year and ostensibly hurt himself doing so.

If he has a preference between LF and RF - again, this wouldn't do anything to alter the makeup of your team, given they are equivalent defensive positions - why wouldn't that be considered? Or should he be moved to RF against his wishes to accommodate...I don't even know who we're accommodating here. Jay Bruce has only ever played RF and has been here since mid-2016. So are we worried about who was playing RF in September 2017? Are we saying Cespedes should have moved to accommodate Travis Taijeron or Nori Aoki?



In a thread of bad subjective takes, this one is a bad take easily proven so objectively. Yeesh.


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 Post subject: Re: T Minus ? Countdown to Cespedes implosion has begun
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:52 pm 
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SergioTheLittleMan wrote:
To me, if I'm making this argument, I'm making it on behalf of someone with a greater than .826 OPS.


If he doesn't like it here, he sure has a weird way of showing it.

Career OPS on 7/31/15: .790
Career OPS since: .900


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 Post subject: Re: T Minus ? Countdown to Cespedes implosion has begun
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 5:02 pm 
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MarkJohnson>You wrote:
SergioTheLittleMan wrote:
So I guess he's just like massively talented but somehow genetically bad at RF and would be even if given additional reps, etc. It sucks when things work out like that, particularly with a guy with a cannon for an arm. But who can argue with the gods, I guess. And, I for one, would not him to play in a position where he's uncomfortable for $110 million even if the team thought it would lead to more wins because, you know, gotta keep him happy to get our 30-35 HRS and "amongst baseball's highest paid players" and priorities and stuff. Now I can understand why Piazza refused to try 1B!


Where did you ever get this?

At what point did the Mets say "Cespedes needs to play RF because our team has guys who are better in LF and CF but can't play RF?" This scenario not only hasn't happened, but he's a gold glover in LF, and also willingly played CENTER FIELD here at the team's request for a year and ostensibly hurt himself doing so.

If he has a preference between LF and RF - again, this wouldn't do anything to alter the makeup of your team, given they are equivalent defensive positions - why wouldn't that be considered? Or should he be moved to RF against his wishes to accommodate...I don't even know who we're accommodating here. Jay Bruce has only ever played RF and has been here since mid-2016. So are we worried about who was playing RF in September 2017? Are we saying Cespedes should have moved to accommodate Travis Taijeron or Nori Aoki?



In a thread of bad subjective takes, this one is a bad take easily proven so objectively. Yeesh.


I don't remember this well enough to argue it but you don't recall when we had trouble getting Conforto in the lineup - I think I might have posted about this once??? - with Lagares against LH because Ces - who made the most sense in RF - wouldn't go there? And having Granderson with no arm in RF generally?


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 Post subject: Re: T Minus ? Countdown to Cespedes implosion has begun
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 5:16 pm 
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SergioTheLittleMan wrote:

I don't remember this well enough to argue it but you don't recall when we had trouble getting Conforto in the lineup - I think I might have posted about this once??? - with Lagares against LH because Ces - who made the most sense in RF - wouldn't go there? And having Granderson with no arm in RF generally?


If these were the options, it would've been pre-Bruce, meaning sometime in early 2016, ostensibly after Cespedes hurt himself playing CF in order to accommodate the above names, which is a year in which Conforto was pretty bad and/or may have even been in AAA at this point.

So no, I don't think you are recalling this correctly at all. Again, since July 2016, Bruce has been in RF. Until early-July 2016, Cespedes played CF here almost exclusively, except occasionally against LHP, when Lagares went in (and either Conforto or Grandy played RF...again, not sure what the argument is here unless you wanted Conforto only in LF or something???).


Again, what is the specific outfield alignment that you are searching for where it only made sense for Cespedes to play RF and he absolutely refused, putting the team in a worse off spot?

In 2015, there was Cespedes, Lagares, Granderson, Conforto and Cuddyer fighting for time. If you wanted him out of CF and in RF to accomodate Lagares, that means you're sitting either Granderson or Conforto. Grandy was in the midst of a 5 win season. Conforto was awesome upon his promotion.

In 2016, they used Ces/Grandy/Conforto in the OF until the trade deadline. Also put Nimmo in when they demoted Conforto. Where in there is the alignment where Cespedes had to play RF or else he was hurting the team? If anything, his willingness, until he hurt his quad, to play CF was the only way they kept the 3 best bats in the lineup.

Once Bruce has gotten here, he's been in RF. It literally hasn't been a consideration for Cespedes to go there.


You're trying to make a Cespedes blocked Conforto argument, but it doesn't exist. Bruce blocked Conforto. Should we start a Bruce-holding-down-youngsters thread?


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 Post subject: Re: T Minus ? Countdown to Cespedes implosion has begun
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 5:38 pm 
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MarkJohnson>You wrote:
SergioTheLittleMan wrote:

I don't remember this well enough to argue it but you don't recall when we had trouble getting Conforto in the lineup - I think I might have posted about this once??? - with Lagares against LH because Ces - who made the most sense in RF - wouldn't go there? And having Granderson with no arm in RF generally?


If these were the options, it would've been pre-Bruce, meaning sometime in early 2016, ostensibly after Cespedes hurt himself playing CF in order to accommodate the above names, which is a year in which Conforto was pretty bad and/or may have even been in AAA at this point.

So no, I don't think you are recalling this correctly at all. Again, since July 2016, Bruce has been in RF. Until early-July 2016, Cespedes played CF here almost exclusively, except occasionally against LHP, when Lagares went in (and either Conforto or Grandy played RF...again, not sure what the argument is here unless you wanted Conforto only in LF or something???).


Again, what is the specific outfield alignment that you are searching for where it only made sense for Cespedes to play RF and he absolutely refused, putting the team in a worse off spot?

In 2015, there was Cespedes, Lagares, Granderson, Conforto and Cuddyer fighting for time. If you wanted him out of CF and in RF to accomodate Lagares, that means you're sitting either Granderson or Conforto. Grandy was in the midst of a 5 win season. Conforto was awesome upon his promotion.

In 2016, they used Ces/Grandy/Conforto in the OF until the trade deadline. Also put Nimmo in when they demoted Conforto. Where in there is the alignment where Cespedes had to play RF or else he was hurting the team? If anything, his willingness, until he hurt his quad, to play CF was the only way they kept the 3 best bats in the lineup.

Once Bruce has gotten here, he's been in RF. It literally hasn't been a consideration for Cespedes to go there.


You're trying to make a Cespedes blocked Conforto argument, but it doesn't exist. Bruce blocked Conforto. Should we start a Bruce-holding-down-youngsters thread?


Best I've got since I don't recall and don't have time to figure this out: https://risingapple.com/2016/01/26/mets-should-expose-yoenis-cespedes-michael-conforto-to-right-field-during-spring-training/. But overall, I'l surrender the minor point unless one of my friends here wants to help me out :) Certainly, you'll agree he refused to move to RF with the Red Sox?


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 Post subject: Re: T Minus ? Countdown to Cespedes implosion has begun
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 5:40 pm 
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