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 Post subject: Re: 2015 NYM Draft: Round 02, Pick 53: HS OF Desmond Lindsay
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 11:18 am 
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Law tweeted that Lindsay is a solid upside play. CF with bat speed.


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 Post subject: Re: 2015 NYM Draft: Round 02, Pick 53: HS OF Desmond Lindsay
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 11:25 am 
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HeyNowHK wrote:
JrMan wrote:
That's not right about Eudor. John Manuel tweeted that he loved the pick, and Eudor was around 150 on BA's top 500.

are we going to justify every pick by finding one analyst that liked it? sounds like a low standard. And I'm not saying I dislike Eudor. Just that the Mets were ahead of the rest of the scouting community on him as I indicated.


No but that's not what we were doing. You said his pick came out of nowhere. It didn't. Eudor is not like Kaupe.


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 Post subject: Re: 2015 NYM Draft: Round 02, Pick 53: HS OF Desmond Lindsay
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 11:28 am 
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Ehalt-

Orlosky only coached Lindsay for two years and did not get to see him play that often this year as Lindsay was limited to less than 10 games due to hamstring injuries. Lindsay injured his hamstring in the team’s first preseason game, and re-strained it shortly after returning and was shut down for the year.

Lindsay had shifted to the outfield this year after playing first base and third base his junior season, and Orlosky said he was “elite” at all those positions. He said Lindsay could have been a shortstop due to his athleticism, but Orlosky used him all over the diamond to help fill in where needed.

“He’s a quick twitch guy, he’s going to run down foul balls. Speed will not be an issue. He’s just started working his outfield game and he’s learning very quickly,” Orlosky said. “He’s a little raw out there but in a couple months working with him he improved tremendously. …I have full confidence wherever they decide to put him he’ll be successful there.”

Entering the draft there Orlosky heard talk that Lindsay might go in the third round, but the Mets opted to make Lindsay their pick at 53 and the coach said those associated with the program were “awfully excited and pleasantly surprised” by the development. While Out-of-Door Academy plays in 3A, which is among the smaller athletic leagues in Florida, he said Desmond excelled against top competition.

“The best competition or the worst doesn’t really matter to him,” Orlosky said. “He’s going to hit whoever you put on the mound.”

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- See more at: http://blog.northjersey.com/mets/5317/l ... 6X9Bl.dpuf

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 Post subject: Re: 2015 NYM Draft: Round 02, Pick 53: HS OF Desmond Lindsay
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 12:24 pm 
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acerimusdux wrote:
"Plus plus" speed has a very specific meaning. If Tom Tanous says this kid is a 70 runner and it turns out he's really a 45, he ends up looking like an incompetent ass. Even if you really liked Lucas Duda, for example, you wouldn't say he was the fastest guy on the Mets. Unless you really wanted to look like a fool.

The Mets certainly could be padding a little, but if this kid is even a 60 runner that probably gives him better overall tools than Bader.


Eh, doesn't "best hitter in the draft" (what they said about Nimmo) have a really specific meaning - in fact, more specific, and more subject to criticism down the road? Just seems like this is what you do: you play up your guy as much as possible and nobody is going to call you on it years later because prospects change. I just can't take anything Tommy Tanuous says about the guy he drafted as being definitive, in either direction.

Chad MacDonald wrote:
“This guy can hit, and he’s going to have power.”


Chad MacDonald wrote:
“Expected him to go in the first three rounds...throws a firm 90-94, was a Friday and Saturday night starter”


Want to guess who these quotes were about?

acerimusdux wrote:

This is one of the most ridiculous things I've read. Anyone paying any attention at all must know that scores of guys have already been drafted with average at best tools.

And tools are far and away the most important thing when you are evaluating these kids in the draft. Performance at that level is secondary. When they get to about AA, then performance is more useful. If you find "tools" an irritating concept though, you are basically going to suck at prospect analysis at any level lower than that.


I'm not debating this. I'm debating the ability to judge tools, or rather justify picks by calling someone toolsy, when we really mean "young and unpolished and oh I don't know but I want to like this pick and can say this word which sounds good." Unless, again, you're inclined to either believe everything the Mets say about the guy they picked (and therefore love the "tools") or conversely consider the BA stuff bible (and therefore question the tools, at least at the spot we picked him). Who knows. The opposite is true too - always hear about polish and so close to the majors on the other end of the spectrum - how often does the guy that the pundits say on draft night "He could help right now!" actually help right now?


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 Post subject: Re: 2015 NYM Draft: Round 02, Pick 53: HS OF Desmond Lindsay
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:10 pm 
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The quotes are Tuschak and Panteliodis, right? If only all 6th and 9th round picks panned out . . . .


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 Post subject: Re: 2015 NYM Draft: Round 02, Pick 53: HS OF Desmond Lindsay
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:15 pm 
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Metro2007 wrote:
Kaupe was one of the biggest reaches (if not the biggest) I've ever seen. Church actually supposedly had "great" workouts for teams per Law (believe he touched mid-90's) but Kaupe went 140th and BA didn't even have him top 500... didn't even have a proper scouting report etc. It was one of those "what the blazes!?".


Really?

Kaupe was the smallest reach I've ever seen.

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 Post subject: Re: 2015 NYM Draft: Round 02, Pick 53: HS OF Desmond Lindsay
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:23 pm 
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JrMan wrote:
The quotes are Tuschak and Panteliodis, right? If only all 6th and 9th round picks panned out . . . .


It has nothing to do with 6th and 9th round picks not being expected to work out, but more about scouting directors are going to talk up the kids they just picked because of course they are.


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 Post subject: Re: 2015 NYM Draft: Round 02, Pick 53: HS OF Desmond Lindsay
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:33 pm 
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MarkJohnson>You wrote:
JrMan wrote:
The quotes are Tuschak and Panteliodis, right? If only all 6th and 9th round picks panned out . . . .


It has nothing to do with 6th and 9th round picks not being expected to work out, but more about scouting directors are going to talk up the kids they just picked because of course they are.


But to be fair, we know how to weigh comments like this on later round selections vs. the team's top pick.


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 Post subject: Re: 2015 NYM Draft: Round 02, Pick 53: HS OF Desmond Lindsay
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:41 pm 
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Why? If you think he was a huge overreach, you can dismiss those comments just as easily. To me, this kid sounds like a bit more stable version of Ivan Wilson. Sure I love the boom/bust aspect to it, if you hit you look like a freakin genius. If you don't, "we didn't pick til 53, we went for a homer and struck out, aw shucks."

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 Post subject: Re: 2015 NYM Draft: Round 02, Pick 53: HS OF Desmond Lindsay
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:54 pm 
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Because the actual pick is the true indicator of the value the team places on the player. Every team is going to say nice things about the players it drafts and their overall haul, but you have to weigh what the team says against where the player was picked and what others say about the player.


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 Post subject: Re: 2015 NYM Draft: Round 02, Pick 53: HS OF Desmond Lindsay
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 2:23 pm 
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MarkJohnson>You wrote:
Eh, doesn't "best hitter in the draft" (what they said about Nimmo) have a really specific meaning - in fact, more specific, and more subject to criticism down the road? Just seems like this is what you do: you play up your guy as much as possible and nobody is going to call you on it years later because prospects change.

I think that's actually much less specific, since the hit tool has to be really hard to objectively measure for a HS hitter who hasn't even faced much advanced HS competition.

By contrast, if you are putting a 65 speed on a guy, then someone has sat there with a stopwatch and timed him running a 6.60 60-yard dash. In Lindsay's case, it turns out that was a 6.56. By contrast, Nimmo's personal best 60-yard time when he ran HS track was a 6.70.

And I wasn't taking anyone's word for it, I quoted Tanous, and said "if this is true.....", and as it turns out it has now been confirmed, so it probably is true.

MarkJohnson>You wrote:
Chad MacDonald wrote:
“This guy can hit, and he’s going to have power.”


Chad MacDonald wrote:
“Expected him to go in the first three rounds...throws a firm 90-94, was a Friday and Saturday night starter”


Want to guess who these quotes were about?

There's nothing especially interesting about either of those quotes. As I mentioned, the hit tool can be difficult to measure objectively, so "this guy can hit" isn't conveying much.

If it's a guy like Cecchini, who plays team USA, the absolute pinnacle of HS level competition, and outhits everyone else on the team, then you could say objectively that there's a good hit tool there. Otherwise, it's just talk. And "he's going to have power" means he doesn't have it now.

As for the second quote, there's nothing special about 90-94 for a college arm, and every college team in the country has both a Friday and Saturday starter. So you are looking at quotes you might get about any mid-rounder.

MarkJohnson>You wrote:
I'm not debating this. I'm debating the ability to judge tools, or rather justify picks by calling someone toolsy, when we really mean "young and unpolished and oh I don't know but I want to like this pick and can say this word which sounds good." Unless, again, you're inclined to either believe everything the Mets say about the guy they picked (and therefore love the "tools") or conversely consider the BA stuff bible (and therefore question the tools, at least at the spot we picked him).

But I haven't said anything at all about him being young, or either polished or unpolished. I was talking about specific tangible, measurable, tools. It's just a straight up fact that both the bat speed and running speed are plus here.

We still may have no idea whether this kid can hit a curve, but if the tools are at least what you would expect that high, that's no small thing. Unfortunately, with this front office, that's not always something you can expect.

That still doesn't necessarily make him a better pick than Harrison Bader, who already has proven some things at the highest levels of college ball. But if the tools weren't at least as good as Bader, I'd be the first one hating on the pick. For now, we can at least say the tools are legit.


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 Post subject: Re: 2015 NYM Draft: Round 02, Pick 53: HS OF Desmond Lindsay
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 5:11 pm 
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Kevin (NYC)

Do you agree with the belief of the Mets FO that Desmond Lindsay would have been a first round pick if he did not have the hamstring injuries?
Klaw (1:07 PM)

I agree he wouldn't have gotten to their pick if he'd been healthy all spring. Or I guess he could have played poorly enough to fall, but I'll bet on the former.

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