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 Post subject: Re: Rep. Giffords (D-Ariz.) Shot in Arizona
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 3:00 pm 
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hotlyds87 wrote:
President Bush wasn't exactly a gun control activist. If he was behind that ban on the high capacity magazines, sounds like Congress just simply failed to make it happen. I would say I'm shocked, but that would be lying.


"Congress just simply failed to make it happen" is a passive way of saying the NRA completely controls congress. I mean, what in the world would be the justification for allowing people to buy the type of clip that was used in this tragedy? Pretending that the NRA isn't one of the most powerful lobbies in the history of the United States of America and that our gun laws aren't filtered through an organization that will oppose full-force with millions of dollars any candidate that shows the slightest interest in gun control is to bury your head in the sand IMO.

It was "simply" that Congress didn't make it happen. It was simply the NRA.

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 Post subject: Re: Rep. Giffords (D-Ariz.) Shot in Arizona
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 3:19 pm 
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hotlyds87 wrote:
President Bush wasn't exactly a gun control activist. If he was behind that ban on the high capacity magazines, sounds like Congress just simply failed to make it happen. I would say I'm shocked, but that would be lying.


i think this is another example of the dangers of the heightened rhetoric and vitriol that has plagued this country for the last several years

it seems like something like extending this ban should have found broad support.. President Bush wanted it and the Senate passed it ...

And this is certainly something that President Obama would be in favor of - but because of the political climate - no one wanted to fight for it.

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 Post subject: Re: Rep. Giffords (D-Ariz.) Shot in Arizona
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:02 pm 
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No need to overreact. There's always going to be crazies in a nation of 300 million people.

I dont think anyone here is to blame, left or right, gun control or gun rights. The kid had mental problems as noted by his college.

This is nothing more than an isolated incident and quite frankly...pretty sick of both liberals and conservatives and their reactionary blame game nonsense.


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 Post subject: Re: Rep. Giffords (D-Ariz.) Shot in Arizona
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:15 pm 
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Ciarán wrote:
No need to overreact. There's always going to be crazies in a nation of 300 million people.

I dont think anyone here is to blame, left or right, gun control or gun rights. The kid had mental problems as noted by his college.

This is nothing more than an isolated incident and quite frankly...pretty sick of both liberals and conservatives and their reactionary blame game nonsense.


I don't think it's time to overreact (by definition, it is never time to "overreact"), but I do think it's time we act when one of our House representatives is the target of an assassination attempt and is, for all intents and purposes, assassinated. What in the world has to happen before we act? How many of these "random" shootings (this was not random at all) are we willing to endure for the sake of...the right to sell extended banana clips for semi-automatic weapons to unstable people?

We can add this to the long list of "isolated incidents" where citizens are murdered by insane people with guns. As someone who lives in DC and works in an area that deals with evacuations and/or bomb scares on a weekly basis, I am so incredibly tired of our pretending that somehow insane people having easy access high-powered guns is the price we have to pay for living in our society. How many isolated incidents do we need before they are not isolated? I have friends who work for representatives who go to events like this one all the time. Can they "overreact"?

And this "both sides are bad" is nonsense. One side is saying, "Maybe we should be more careful when speaking because there are crazy people out there." The other side is saying, "We should not have to be careful and how dare you for suggesting that words we speak as politicians have an impact!" When the Sheriff says, "There is a lot of hate out there and we need to be more careful" and your first response is a "HOW DARE YOU!", then I'm sorry to say I'm a little confused.

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 Post subject: Re: Rep. Giffords (D-Ariz.) Shot in Arizona
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:22 pm 
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doowop14 wrote:
TrueBlue15 wrote:
How can his defense lawyer look in the mirror and be proud of himself for defending this kid and his actions. Ridiculous.


Unless the attorney is doing it out of a desire for fame or notoriety, he/she has more than enough grounds to proud be of him/herself. It's easy to defend a person who appears to deserves it. But putting forth an aggressive defense for a person like this is in the spirit of supporting all citizens and ensuring their Constitutional rights. Any attorney who refuses to defend this guy because he doesn't want to help a piece of garbage like him are the ones that should have trouble looking themselves in the mirror. In this case, a good attorney should, in his heart of hearts, hope to lose. But the loss should be predicated on the preponderance of evidence against the defendant and not his/her failure to ensure that his rights are upheld so that the system can do its job. Providing a proper defense for Loughner has less to do with getting him off than it does for proving the system works and why we should support our Constitution. We can't just throw the Constitution to the wayside when it doesn't suit our desires. We have to work with the Constitution. After all, isn't this part of the reason we broke from England?


Oh no doubt. I'm not saying that this country does not need defense lawyers. Of course, people are wrongfully accused of crimes they did not commit and they need to get defended. I was just speaking out of frustration with regards to defense lawyers and this high-profile case.


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 Post subject: Re: Rep. Giffords (D-Ariz.) Shot in Arizona
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:47 pm 
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chinabox wrote:
Ciarán wrote:
No need to overreact. There's always going to be crazies in a nation of 300 million people.

I dont think anyone here is to blame, left or right, gun control or gun rights. The kid had mental problems as noted by his college.

This is nothing more than an isolated incident and quite frankly...pretty sick of both liberals and conservatives and their reactionary blame game nonsense.


I don't think it's time to overreact (by definition, it is never time to "overreact"), but I do think it's time we act when one of our House representatives is the target of an assassination attempt and is, for all intents and purposes, assassinated. What in the world has to happen before we act? How many of these "random" shootings (this was not random at all) are we willing to endure for the sake of...the right to sell extended banana clips for semi-automatic weapons to unstable people?

We can add this to the long list of "isolated incidents" where citizens are murdered by insane people with guns. As someone who lives in DC and works in an area that deals with evacuations and/or bomb scares on a weekly basis, I am so incredibly tired of our pretending that somehow insane people having easy access high-powered guns is the price we have to pay for living in our society. How many isolated incidents do we need before they are not isolated? I have friends who work for representatives who go to events like this one all the time. Can they "overreact"?

And this "both sides are bad" is nonsense. One side is saying, "Maybe we should be more careful when speaking because there are crazy people out there." The other side is saying, "We should not have to be careful and how dare you for suggesting that words we speak as politicians have an impact!" When the Sheriff says, "There is a lot of hate out there and we need to be more careful" and your first response is a "HOW DARE YOU!", then I'm sorry to say I'm a little confused.


Apparently it's too much to ask the hate merchants of talk radio and the "entertainers" of Fox News to stop for even a few moments to look in the mirror.

As I posted earlier, whether or not this kid was influenced by all the overheated discourse is beside the point for the rest of us.

This incident should serve as a reminder that there are people out there capable of doing what he did and even if HE wasn't influenced by the rhetoric there are most certainly similarly deranged people who could be.

To me, that's reason enough to tone it down, or at least choose less violent metaphors and think twice about demonizing the government and anyone associated with it.

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 Post subject: Re: Rep. Giffords (D-Ariz.) Shot in Arizona
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:19 am 
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Chico wrote:
Apparently it's too much to ask the hate merchants of talk radio and the "entertainers" of Fox News to stop for even a few moments to look in the mirror.

As I posted earlier, whether or not this kid was influenced by all the overheated discourse is beside the point for the rest of us.

This incident should serve as a reminder that there are people out there capable of doing what he did and even if HE wasn't influenced by the rhetoric there are most certainly similarly deranged people who could be.

To me, that's reason enough to tone it down, or at least choose less violent metaphors and think twice about demonizing the government and anyone associated with it.


Pretty much everything you said could apply to liberals pre-Obama. Bush is Hitler? Bush and Cheney should be convicted of war crimes ala the Nazis? This is one issue that certainly goes both ways. And you are completely right, but CNN/Fox/MSNBC make money by being controversial, because people in this country don't care about the news unless it's entertaining and/or crazy. Most folks get all their news from comedians (Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert) or entertainers (Glenn Beck and Keith Olbermann).

It's hard for me to blame the toolbags who give the people what they want. I think we as a culture should look in the mirror. I'm sure E! News gets better ratings than any serious news broadcast.


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 Post subject: Re: Rep. Giffords (D-Ariz.) Shot in Arizona
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:10 am 
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Two things.

1) I'm not sure why saying that Bush and Cheney ought to be prosecuted for war crimes belongs in the same category as calling them Nazis. These are quite different things - the war crimes claim is based on a specific argument based on the violation of the Geneva conventions for treatment of detainees. Even if you dispute the argument, I'm not sure it is wild rhetoric.

2) We ought to be careful with the moral equivalence argument. There is no doubt that this sort of thing happens on "the left." Olbermann is one obvious example ("worst person in the world," use of the facism analogy, etc.), and there are wackos in every house. Yet, this does not suffice to show that this kind of overheated rhetoric is equal on both sides. Is there an equivalent on the left for the continued insistence, by politicians on the right, that the Health Care bill would institute death panels? Sarah Palin and Glenn Beck may be leading the media coverage on these issues, but Republican politicians pick up the lines to satiate their constituencies who are so influenced by them.

Even if one rejects this point, adverting to the "it happens on both sides" response is crippling, it prevents us from getting anything done about these things. Debate is setup around the "Democrat vs Republican" framework. Journalists set things up as "Democrats say x, but Republicans say y", even when dealing with clear matters of fact. When we point to wrongdoing or errors by one side, and we simply point to the woes of the other, we are giving excuses for not addressing it (I'm guilty of it too, it is hard to avoid "team-mentality" in politics).

---

I think Chico and Zach have stated this nicely. It is not that we need a causal claim here. It is not that Glenn Beck, Sarah Palin and those who use violent and hateful rhetoric are responsible for this shooting. It is rather that this shooting ought to be a wakeup call for the effects that this kind of hateful rhetoric can have on political discourse in this country, from anyone who peddles it.

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 Post subject: Re: Rep. Giffords (D-Ariz.) Shot in Arizona
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:09 pm 
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hotlyds87 wrote:
Chico wrote:
Apparently it's too much to ask the hate merchants of talk radio and the "entertainers" of Fox News to stop for even a few moments to look in the mirror.

As I posted earlier, whether or not this kid was influenced by all the overheated discourse is beside the point for the rest of us.

This incident should serve as a reminder that there are people out there capable of doing what he did and even if HE wasn't influenced by the rhetoric there are most certainly similarly deranged people who could be.

To me, that's reason enough to tone it down, or at least choose less violent metaphors and think twice about demonizing the government and anyone associated with it.


Pretty much everything you said could apply to liberals pre-Obama. Bush is Hitler? Bush and Cheney should be convicted of war crimes ala the Nazis? This is one issue that certainly goes both ways. And you are completely right, but CNN/Fox/MSNBC make money by being controversial, because people in this country don't care about the news unless it's entertaining and/or crazy. Most folks get all their news from comedians (Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert) or entertainers (Glenn Beck and Keith Olbermann).

It's hard for me to blame the toolbags who give the people what they want. I think we as a culture should look in the mirror. I'm sure E! News gets better ratings than any serious news broadcast.


I don't agree that the level of preposterous rhetoric is equal on the right and the left, but I agree that it exists on both sides of the political divide and I think this is a time for EVERYONE to take a step back.

To his credit, Olbermann took "Worst Persons" off for a month or so and renamed it "(not really) Worst Persons". Last night, he announced that the segment would go away for at least awhile and if it came back at all, it would be in a different form.

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 Post subject: Re: Rep. Giffords (D-Ariz.) Shot in Arizona
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:18 pm 
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The election of 2008 coinciding with the economic, financial meltdown - thats when FOX and MSNBC formally took their sides and started to ratchet up the rhetoric

During most of the Bush presidency - Democrats went along with pretty much everything Bush wanted. There wasn't a uniform opposition against Bush. Even the war in Iraq. A war that the president said was necessary because Iraq posed an imminent nuclear threat.

I was amazed at how passive people were about this war - War is hell. So much death comes from war. thousands of Innocent people died. Yet the mainstream media and most politicians asked very little questions about why it was necessary to go to war.

I went to a protest concert with some famous bands playing. The people in the crowd were apathetic when it came to war - for the most part - they didn't want to hear people speak - they wanted to hear their favorite bands play.

Were there fringe groups calling Bush a Nazi? sure. but they were on the fringe. No politician was yelling "You Lie" to president Bush during his state of the union speech.

The mainstream media and MSNBC showed very little opposition when it came to President Bush's war agenda during most of his presidency.

But President Obama has had uniform opposition from the republican party right from the start of his presidency. Republicans made a political calculation - knowing that the economy was going to be bad for several years and decided to have the president bear the burden of trying to revive the economy as they throw stones from the sidelines saying he's doing it all wrong.

President Obama has had to endure a Tea Party back by FOX news. He has been accused of death panels when he tries to reform health care, He's a socialist because he wants to raise the marginal tax rate on the wealthiest from 36 to 39% or if he wants to do what should be considered "common sense" reform to Wall Street.

FOX and MSNBC are both feeding off the frustrations of americans who are concerned about the economy and jobs. And the way they are warping people's view points and polarizing people is dangerous.

Having said all that - this hideous crime has very little to do with the media. This person was mentally disturbed. The focus should be on our mental health system, our education system, on the parents perhaps, and the gun laws in this country.

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 Post subject: Re: Rep. Giffords (D-Ariz.) Shot in Arizona
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:46 pm 
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This is disturbing. From Bloomberg News:
Quote:
After a Glock-wielding gunman killed six people at a Tucson shopping center on Jan. 8, Greg Wolff, the owner of two Arizona gun shops, told his manager to get ready for a stampede of new customers.

Wolff was right. Instead of hurting sales, the massacre had the $499 semi-automatic pistols -- popular with police, sport shooters and gangsters -- flying out the doors of his Glockmeister stores in Mesa and Phoenix.

“We’re at double our volume over what we usually do,” Wolff said two days after the shooting spree that also left 14 wounded, including Democratic Representative Gabrielle Giffords, who remains in critical condition.


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 Post subject: Re: Rep. Giffords (D-Ariz.) Shot in Arizona
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:32 pm 
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dougdilg wrote:
This is disturbing. From Bloomberg News:
Quote:
After a Glock-wielding gunman killed six people at a Tucson shopping center on Jan. 8, Greg Wolff, the owner of two Arizona gun shops, told his manager to get ready for a stampede of new customers.

Wolff was right. Instead of hurting sales, the massacre had the $499 semi-automatic pistols -- popular with police, sport shooters and gangsters -- flying out the doors of his Glockmeister stores in Mesa and Phoenix.

“We’re at double our volume over what we usually do,” Wolff said two days after the shooting spree that also left 14 wounded, including Democratic Representative Gabrielle Giffords, who remains in critical condition.


I don't find this all that disturbing. This is people who were thinking of buying weapons being worried that this shooting will cause a huge crackdown on weapons sales in the area.


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