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 Post subject: Re: Rep. Giffords (D-Ariz.) Shot in Arizona
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 3:26 am 
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hotlyds87 wrote:

I don't find this all that disturbing. This is people who were thinking of buying weapons being worried that this shooting will cause a huge crackdown on weapons sales in the area.


Please tell me why anyone needs a Glock.

Do you really think the reaction to this weekend's events should be let's have more guns out there, not less?


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 Post subject: Re: Rep. Giffords (D-Ariz.) Shot in Arizona
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:21 am 
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dougdilg wrote:
hotlyds87 wrote:

I don't find this all that disturbing. This is people who were thinking of buying weapons being worried that this shooting will cause a huge crackdown on weapons sales in the area.


Please tell me why anyone needs a Glock.

Do you really think the reaction to this weekend's events should be let's have more guns out there, not less?


Everyone wants to be a cowboy.

I have to say, I'm really glad living in a place where the crime rate is about as close to zero as possible and discussions of the need for guns are met with open derision. This isn't to say that there isn't any validity to the home defense argument, but it's nice to be able to opt out of the discussion entirely.

There's also this:

Quote:
The new poster boy for this agenda is Joe Zamudio, a hero in the Tucson incident. Zamudio was in a nearby drug store when the shooting began, and he was armed. He ran to the scene and helped subdue the killer. Television interviewers are celebrating his courage, and pro-gun blogs are touting his equipment. "Bystander Says Carrying Gun Prompted Him to Help," says the headline in the Wall Street Journal.

But before we embrace Zamudio's brave intervention as proof of the value of being armed, let's hear the whole story. "I came out of that store, I clicked the safety off, and I was ready," he explained on Fox and Friends. "I had my hand on my gun. I had it in my jacket pocket here. And I came around the corner like this." Zamudio demonstrated how his shooting hand was wrapped around the weapon, poised to draw and fire. As he rounded the corner, he saw a man holding a gun. "And that's who I at first thought was the shooter," Zamudio recalled. "I told him to 'Drop it, drop it!' "

But the man with the gun wasn't the shooter. He had wrested the gun away from the shooter. "Had you shot that guy, it would have been a big, fat mess," the interviewer pointed out.


http://www.slate.com/id/2280794/

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 Post subject: Re: Rep. Giffords (D-Ariz.) Shot in Arizona
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:12 pm 
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Target's name and logo are horrifically violent. What is the implication of this chain? Sometimes when I am there shopping I feel a tendency towards violence due to the bulls-eyes all over the place. Something must be done about them!

The Atlanta Thrashers makes me think about thrashing people!
New Jersey Devils?! OMG!
UMASS Minutemen?! How could this be permitted? I might go buy me an old uniform and go berserk with Raiders, River Bandits, Warriors, and Pirates fans!

OK, so some hyperbole here, but Cupid has an arrow and superheroes use weapons all the time.

The world is full of dangerous things and messages. It's all over the place. Should we not use the expression "I've got that X-Box in my sights!" Should we not say "To Paint the Town Red" because some people think it's about being violent in the 'town'?

I'm not sure where the line ends.


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 Post subject: Re: Rep. Giffords (D-Ariz.) Shot in Arizona
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:25 pm 
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SHPIDA wrote:
Target's name and logo are horrifically violent. What is the implication of this chain? Sometimes when I am there shopping I feel a tendency towards violence due to the bulls-eyes all over the place. Something must be done about them!

The Atlanta Thrashers makes me think about thrashing people!
New Jersey Devils?! OMG!
UMASS Minutemen?! How could this be permitted? I might go buy me an old uniform and go berserk with Raiders, River Bandits, Warriors, and Pirates fans!

OK, so some hyperbole here, but Cupid has an arrow and superheroes use weapons all the time.

The world is full of dangerous things and messages. It's all over the place. Should we not use the expression "I've got that X-Box in my sights!" Should we not say "To Paint the Town Red" because some people think it's about being violent in the 'town'?

I'm not sure where the line ends.


Pretending not to understand the difference between the store Target, the Atlanta Thrashers and Sharron Angle -- a political leader with the support of a large segment of the population -- saying that her supporters might have to pursue "Second Amendment remedies" is one of the most disingenuous, most cynically political arguments that is available in the aftermath of this shooting.

Again, this isn't a joke for those of us who live in DC and have friends who work in the very same positions as those murdered by an insane person with an extended clip on his semi-automatic pistol. This is such a weird time to make sarcastic jabs at those folks worried that maybe we shouldn't be lighting a fire underneath a country dealing with a recession and up to their eyeballs in weaponry.

I am not able to deconstruct the reasons for fighting so hard against the notion that our words have meanings and when our politicians say things, we should assume that there are folks who are listening.

I'm sick of being told that I should shrug my shoulders every time people are murdered by anti-government zealots. It's never the guns, it's never the inflammatory rhetoric, it's never the environment of the killer. It's always just another isolated incident in a string of isolated incidents.

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 Post subject: Re: Rep. Giffords (D-Ariz.) Shot in Arizona
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:42 pm 
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chinabox wrote:
SHPIDA wrote:
Target's name and logo are horrifically violent. What is the implication of this chain? Sometimes when I am there shopping I feel a tendency towards violence due to the bulls-eyes all over the place. Something must be done about them!

The Atlanta Thrashers makes me think about thrashing people!
New Jersey Devils?! OMG!
UMASS Minutemen?! How could this be permitted? I might go buy me an old uniform and go berserk with Raiders, River Bandits, Warriors, and Pirates fans!

OK, so some hyperbole here, but Cupid has an arrow and superheroes use weapons all the time.

The world is full of dangerous things and messages. It's all over the place. Should we not use the expression "I've got that X-Box in my sights!" Should we not say "To Paint the Town Red" because some people think it's about being violent in the 'town'?

I'm not sure where the line ends.


Pretending not to understand the difference between the store Target, the Atlanta Thrashers and Sharron Angle -- a political leader with the support of a large segment of the population -- saying that her supporters might have to pursue "Second Amendment remedies" is one of the most disingenuous, most cynically political arguments that is available in the aftermath of this shooting.

Again, this isn't a joke for those of us who live in DC and have friends who work in the very same positions as those murdered by an insane person with an extended clip on his semi-automatic pistol. This is such a weird time to make sarcastic jabs at those folks worried that maybe we shouldn't be lighting a fire underneath a country dealing with a recession and up to their eyeballs in weaponry.

I am not able to deconstruct the reasons for fighting so hard against the notion that our words have meanings and when our politicians say things, we should assume that there are folks who are listening.

I'm sick of being told that I should shrug my shoulders every time people are murdered by anti-government zealots. It's never the guns, it's never the inflammatory rhetoric, it's never the environment of the killer. It's always just another isolated incident in a string of isolated incidents.


Zach, I guess I didn't provide context as it relates to my comments. I'm very in favor of gun control, and agree with the sentiments expressed regarding EXTENDED clips, and the absurdity behind claiming they need an Uzi to hunt. I firmly believe that when people (politicians, celebrities, media, etc) talk, people are listening. There are crazy people that will do crazy things.

I am just not sure what in society besides flowers, smiley faces, and rainbows could not IN THEORY be put under some scrutiny. If someone wore a patch over one eye and slashed people with swords, would not some people say that using the word pirate implies a certain level of potential violence? There are crazy people that will do crazy things.


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 Post subject: Re: Rep. Giffords (D-Ariz.) Shot in Arizona
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:50 pm 
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Crazy people will do crazy things, always.

But right now the discussion seems to be whether it's okay for our politicians to call for armed revolution. The bar has not been lowered -- it is now laying on the ground. We are so obsessed and it is so "instrumental" to our politics for their to be "two sides" of every argument, but when you're debating whether we should be okay with mainstream politicians telling their supporters to be "armed and dangerous" then our media and society is completely broken.

This isn't a game to me. There are not two sides.

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 Post subject: Re: Rep. Giffords (D-Ariz.) Shot in Arizona
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:58 pm 
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chinabox wrote:
Crazy people will do crazy things, always.

But right now the discussion seems to be whether it's okay for our politicians to call for armed revolution. The bar has not been lowered -- it is now laying on the ground. We are so obsessed and it is so "instrumental" to our politics for their to be "two sides" of every argument, but when you're debating whether we should be okay with mainstream politicians telling their supporters to be "armed and dangerous" then our media and society is completely broken.

This isn't a game to me. There are not two sides.


Agreed on that. It's almost like people think that it's a civil war, but it doesn't appear that there is any articulation of why there is a war. It's lunacy.


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 Post subject: Re: Rep. Giffords (D-Ariz.) Shot in Arizona
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:53 pm 
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chinabox wrote:
Crazy people will do crazy things, always.

But right now the discussion seems to be whether it's okay for our politicians to call for armed revolution. The bar has not been lowered -- it is now laying on the ground. We are so obsessed and it is so "instrumental" to our politics for their to be "two sides" of every argument, but when you're debating whether we should be okay with mainstream politicians telling their supporters to be "armed and dangerous" then our media and society is completely broken.

This isn't a game to me. There are not two sides.


I don't think Glenn Beck or Sarah Palin have ever called for armed revolution. I am not even sure if you can find a quote that implies that from either of them. Beck is obsessed with MLK and peaceful, yet whiny protest - and Sarah Palin barely stands for anything of substance these days. Mostly she just hunts moose and gets her daughter on TV. I find that most of the arguments that condemn Beck and Palin give them a whole lot more credit than deserved.


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 Post subject: Re: Rep. Giffords (D-Ariz.) Shot in Arizona
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:21 am 
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..it's important for us to pause for a moment and make sure that we are talking with each other in a way that heals, not a way that wounds. ...

...to look forward, to reflect on the present and the future, on the manner in which we live our lives and nurture our relationships with those who are still with us. We may ask ourselves if we've shown enough kindness and generosity and compassion to the people in our lives. Perhaps we question whether we are doing right by our children, or our community, and whether our priorities are in order. We recognize our own mortality, and are reminded that in the fleeting time we have on this earth, what matters is not wealth, or status, or power, or fame - but rather, how well we have loved, and what small part we have played in bettering the lives of others.

That process of reflection, of making sure we align our values with our actions - that, I believe, is what a tragedy like this requires.

President Barack Obama


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 Post subject: Re: Rep. Giffords (D-Ariz.) Shot in Arizona
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 7:52 pm 
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I can't remember which pundit I saw say it the other day, but whoever it was made a point to the effect that it says a lot about the warped level of clout the NRA has over the legislative process when you can't walk onto a commercial airline flight with a bottle of shampoo, but dozens of members of Congress are afraid to pass laws that would restrict the sales, in any way, of the kind of weaponry Loughner used in Tucson.

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 Post subject: Re: Rep. Giffords (D-Ariz.) Shot in Arizona
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 7:58 pm 
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Another interesting contrast--

Most commentators on the right, disavowing any connection between the heated anti-government rhetoric since Obama took office, some of it laced with violent metaphors, and the rampage in Tucson, have proclaimed (accurately, IMO) that Loughner's was a singular atrocity committed by one deranged person acting alone.

How many of those same commentators seized on the religion of the shooter as "evidence" that Islam promotes violence following the Fort Hood shootings? Or that rather than being one deranged person, that the shooter was a "jihadist"?

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 Post subject: Re: Rep. Giffords (D-Ariz.) Shot in Arizona
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:19 pm 
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Glenn Beck has it right...the liberal media is responsible...

Back to reality.

America is a very angry place right now;
(1) people are angry at the wars' costs in people and time and energy (and money),
(2) people are angry at an economy that refuses to turn the corner for more than a teasing second,
(3) people are angry at schools that are failing their children, when anyone with a sense of logic understands that schools are reflections of community, not causations of...yet Zach's chief of schools used anger to fire up the public.
(4) people are angry at politicians who stand for nothing, laughingly throw their largesse and corruptions around as an entitlement,
(5) at national debt loads
(6) at program cuts
(7) at tax cuts that benefit the wealthy
(8) and that they are living in a world seemingly at the brink.

Weapons are probably not safe with anyone.

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