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 Post subject: Doublethink
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:52 pm 
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Am I living in some sort of twilight zone here? Did the last 10 years not just happen?

I hope someone can enlighten me how a president of can go to war in a foreign country that posed no imminent threat to the United States of America with no media outrage over the constitution being violated?

Meanwhile the very same people who were outraged at the previous administration's alleged war crimes remain silent.

Why was there no debate? Why didnt the Congress debate this 3rd war?


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 Post subject: Re: Doublethink
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:11 pm 
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Quote:
In December 2007, The Boston Globe asked 12 presidential candidates about military action aimed at stopping Iran from building nuclear weapons. "In what circumstances, if any," the Globe asked, "would the president have constitutional authority to bomb Iran without seeking a use-of-force authorization from Congress?"

Barack Obama responded: "The president does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation."


Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/op ... z1HSJh8eIN


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 Post subject: Re: Doublethink
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:48 pm 
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There's no reason why the president would need congressional approval to support a UN sanctioned military action. The US has a standing treaty with the UN that covers this.

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 Post subject: Re: Doublethink
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:27 pm 
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Ciarán wrote:
Meanwhile the very same people who were outraged at the previous administration's alleged war crimes remain silent.

I doubt you're going to find many liberals jumping on the War with Libya bandwagon. In fact, I'd say that right now most liberals are furious with the Obama administration, and not just because of Libya.


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 Post subject: Re: Doublethink
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:29 am 
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When was the last time Congress declared war?

What SlobX said on UN Resolution 1973. Are we ignoring that the U.S. was alone in this? Do you care what UK Parliament thinks of David Cameron? France thinks of Sarkozy? What about that Jordan, Kuwait, and Turkey support the no-fly zone coalition? America may be part of the vanguard at the UN but it is not unilateral.

This whole situation in those countries over there came out of the blue for many people and is still pretty gray. Everybody knows Gaddhafi is a dictator as are many of the leaders in countries with conflicts. But in the international political game, action in Libya is most popular in the surrounding regions (that does not necessarily mean it is a good idea or a bad idea).

I found this Rachel Maddow piece very interesting (seeing how some of the leaders going down had good relations with the U.S.) and it echos of the Bosnia no-fly zone of 1995 that ended up not going as planned:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#42241368

Personally, I am on the fence on the interventions. Gaddhafi was always a creep to me but I have no idea what any of these countries offer in terms of alternative leaders and if they are even democratic leaders with their fellow citizens at interest (not that I think their current leaders have those interest). I am not really interested in raising those said alternatives that I am sure few people in the US actually have an idea about.


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 Post subject: Re: Doublethink
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:03 am 
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And the same people (elected officials and commentators) who gave George W Bush carte blanche to do whatever he wanted in Iraq and Afghanistan from 2001 until he left office are suddenly outraged by a President acting on his own.

It's remarkable that Dennis Kucinich on the left and Ron Paul on the right are practically lone voices in that they were critical of BOTH the Republican Bush and the Democrat Obama for taking unilateral war actions.

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 Post subject: Re: Doublethink
PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:27 pm 
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I think a lot of the criticism regarding the President needing authorization from Congress is silly and just CYA on the part of the Congresspeople who don't want to have any responsibility in these matters.

I am a little confused as to why we don't have a coherent agenda (ala Sandy Alderson's vision for the Mets) on how we deal with these situations. Either we support democracy for as much of the Middle East as possible, or we don't. I think, despite all the things you can say about Dubya, he was very clear where he stood on this. I hope we are clear on whether we are willing to support the end of non-democratic regimes anywhere in the world - specifically the Middle East and the Muslim world.


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 Post subject: Re: Doublethink
PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:48 pm 
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hotlyds87 wrote:
I am a little confused as to why we don't have a coherent agenda (ala Sandy Alderson's vision for the Mets) on how we deal with these situations. Either we support democracy for as much of the Middle East as possible, or we don't. I think, despite all the things you can say about Dubya, he was very clear where he stood on this. I hope we are clear on whether we are willing to support the end of non-democratic regimes anywhere in the world - specifically the Middle East and the Muslim world.

You gotta be kidding me.

There is nothing confusing about Obama's policy.

For decades the United States has supported a bunch of autocratic states in the Middle East. "Democracy for the Middle East" is just a pretext to get rid of the autocrats who don't do what the US wants.

Saddam and Gaddafi don't play ball, so the US calls them despots who must be removed so democracy can flourish in Iraq and Libya.

Saudi Arabia with its absolute monarchy is an ally (and major oil supplier), so they get a free pass.

Mubarak in Egypt was a long-time ally, so Obama didn't tell him to step down until it was pretty much a fait accompli.

Bush would have done the same things Obama has done if he were still president, as would McCain had he won in 2008.


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 Post subject: Re: Doublethink
PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:54 pm 
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Banger wrote:
Bush would have done the same things Obama has done if he were still president, as would McCain had he won in 2008.



Quoted for truth.

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 Post subject: Re: Doublethink
PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:29 pm 
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Banger wrote:
You gotta be kidding me.

There is nothing confusing about Obama's policy.

For decades the United States has supported a bunch of autocratic states in the Middle East. "Democracy for the Middle East" is just a pretext to get rid of the autocrats who don't do what the US wants.

Saddam and Gaddafi don't play ball, so the US calls them despots who must be removed so democracy can flourish in Iraq and Libya.

Saudi Arabia with its absolute monarchy is an ally (and major oil supplier), so they get a free pass.

Mubarak in Egypt was a long-time ally, so Obama didn't tell him to step down until it was pretty much a fait accompli.

Bush would have done the same things Obama has done if he were still president, as would McCain had he won in 2008.


So why did we not support Iran's protests recently? They are definitely not playing any ball with us.

http://www.verumserum.com/?p=20976

That's Condi Rice calling for democracy in Egypt in 2005. Bush made it pretty clear that he felt most autocratic regimes (unless they moved to banish terrorists, ala Saudi Arabia) were not welcome in his foreign policy view.


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 Post subject: Re: Doublethink
PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:31 pm 
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hotlyds87 wrote:
So why did we not support Iran's protests recently? They are definitely not playing any ball with us.

The US did support Iran's protests, both in 2009 and in 2011. And I bet that if they went into full scale civil war, Iran would get the Libya treatment.

Quote:
http://www.verumserum.com/?p=20976

That's Condi Rice in Egypt in 2005 calling for democracy in the Middle East.

Fixed that for you. 8)

Nowhere in this speech is she calling for Mubarak to step down. She is saying that Egypt, a long-time US ally and nominal democracy (but de facto autocracy), is going to help lead the way for further expansion of democracy in the Middle East. How is this any different than the official line of the Obama administration immediately prior to the Egypt revolts?

Quote:
Bush made it pretty clear that he felt most autocratic regimes (unless they moved to banish terrorists, ala Saudi Arabia) were not welcome in his foreign policy view.

In other words, to quote my prior statement:

For decades the United States has supported a bunch of autocratic states in the Middle East. "Democracy for the Middle East" is just a pretext to get rid of the autocrats who don't do what the US wants.


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 Post subject: Re: Doublethink
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:35 pm 
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Banger wrote:
hotlyds87 wrote:
So why did we not support Iran's protests recently? They are definitely not playing any ball with us.

The US did support Iran's protests, both in 2009 and in 2011. And I bet that if they went into full scale civil war, Iran would get the Libya treatment.

Quote:
http://www.verumserum.com/?p=20976

That's Condi Rice in Egypt in 2005 calling for democracy in the Middle East.

Fixed that for you. 8)

Nowhere in this speech is she calling for Mubarak to step down. She is saying that Egypt, a long-time US ally and nominal democracy (but de facto autocracy), is going to help lead the way for further expansion of democracy in the Middle East. How is this any different than the official line of the Obama administration immediately prior to the Egypt revolts?

Quote:
Bush made it pretty clear that he felt most autocratic regimes (unless they moved to banish terrorists, ala Saudi Arabia) were not welcome in his foreign policy view.

In other words, to quote my prior statement:

For decades the United States has supported a bunch of autocratic states in the Middle East. "Democracy for the Middle East" is just a pretext to get rid of the autocrats who don't do what the US wants.


I suggest reading Bush's memoir "Decision Points." He absolutely advocates democracy in Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Egypt. In fact, he believes it will be the young, educated, and women populations, which prompt such freedom rallies, basically exactly what happened in Egypt.

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