MESSAGE BOARDS TOOLS:  Search | Members | User Control Panel |   | Login 


All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]

Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 29 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Doublethink
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 3:13 am 
User avatar
Online
Legend of NYFS

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:01 am
Posts: 16519
Location: Atlanta
Hilltop wrote:
Banger wrote:
For decades the United States has supported a bunch of autocratic states in the Middle East. "Democracy for the Middle East" is just a pretext to get rid of the autocrats who don't do what the US wants.


I suggest reading Bush's memoir "Decision Points." He absolutely advocates democracy in Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Egypt. In fact, he believes it will be the young, educated, and women populations, which prompt such freedom rallies, basically exactly what happened in Egypt.


I'm failing to see the contradiction.

_________________
Jeff Wilpon should be the last guy to demean someone for failing to get a ring.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Doublethink
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:18 pm 
User avatar
Offline
Everyday Player

Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2006 12:59 pm
Posts: 1367
Location: Land of the Nats and Redskins
Sorry Northway, it quoted just one aspect not the entire quotation. I did not mean to point out a contradiction just hope to clarify hotlyds point further. I meant to quote this part:


Quote:
Nowhere in this speech is she calling for Mubarak to step down. She is saying that Egypt, a long-time US ally and nominal democracy (but de facto autocracy), is going to help lead the way for further expansion of democracy in the Middle East. How is this any different than the official line of the Obama administration immediately prior to the Egypt revolts?


While the speech specifically did not mention Mubarak to step down, both Condi and Bush in his memoir expresses his frustration with Mubarak with refusing to allow elections and for his suppression of civil rights in Egypt calling for them to allow greater freedoms, similar to his calls on Moscow to allow greater freedoms in Russia.

_________________
Playoffs or bust....Ya Gotta Believe in 2012, it's why they play the games! Anything can happen.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Doublethink
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 10:10 am 
User avatar
Offline
All Star

Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 10:40 am
Posts: 2132
Hilltop wrote:
Sorry Northway, it quoted just one aspect not the entire quotation. I did not mean to point out a contradiction just hope to clarify hotlyds point further. I meant to quote this part:


Quote:
Nowhere in this speech is she calling for Mubarak to step down. She is saying that Egypt, a long-time US ally and nominal democracy (but de facto autocracy), is going to help lead the way for further expansion of democracy in the Middle East. How is this any different than the official line of the Obama administration immediately prior to the Egypt revolts?


While the speech specifically did not mention Mubarak to step down, both Condi and Bush in his memoir expresses his frustration with Mubarak with refusing to allow elections and for his suppression of civil rights in Egypt calling for them to allow greater freedoms, similar to his calls on Moscow to allow greater freedoms in Russia.

Sorry, but Bush fretting about Egypt in a 2010 memoir does not constitute policy. The US was so upset about Egypt's lack of "freedom" that they gave them billions of dollars worth of military and economic aid over the past few decades.

It's kind of ironic, though, how Bush complained in his memoir about Russia, considering that the conservative agenda has made the US more like Russia.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Doublethink
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 3:06 pm 
User avatar
Offline
Everyday Player

Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2006 12:59 pm
Posts: 1367
Location: Land of the Nats and Redskins
I would say it is more than just fretting, rather exposing back door diplomacy that the public isn't privy to. He sent officials to talk with Egypt and Russia about their lack of freedoms and urging them to allow the people greater rights. Would they go as far to upset "crucial" allies? No, there I agree with you, but it can not be ignored that there was at least attempts to pressure Egypt into granting elections to its people.

_________________
Playoffs or bust....Ya Gotta Believe in 2012, it's why they play the games! Anything can happen.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Doublethink
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 10:02 pm 
User avatar
Online
Legend of NYFS

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:01 am
Posts: 16519
Location: Atlanta
How is the public not privy to it? If you study political science this stuff is front and center when discussing the Middle East. Hell, if you read the New York Times the "backdoor diplomacy" that we're unaware of comes up pretty frequently. It's not like you have to be reading Foreign Policy to get a handle on the calculations the US makes in the Middle East.

And seriously, there were no pressures. Wishing is not a pressure. Case in point: I wish the Mets would win the World Series. I am in no position to pressure them to do so.

_________________
Jeff Wilpon should be the last guy to demean someone for failing to get a ring.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Doublethink
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 10:21 pm 
User avatar
Offline
Everyday Player

Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2006 12:59 pm
Posts: 1367
Location: Land of the Nats and Redskins
You can pressure someone privately with the press not around. Just because there wasn't a declared "policy" of it does not mean that it was not talked about or discussed at lengths or that our displeasure or pressure was not applied privately. The public is aware of much less than we think we do even with all of the freedom our press has.

I think what is being overlooked in this discussion is Iraq. Middle Eastern citizens seeing Iraqis turning out for votes and exercising their rights and a desire for freedom is spurring this across the entire region. I have always said that in 25 years, if Iraq is a democracy then Bush's legacy is cemented right there. However, it looks like the seeds of democracy planted in Iraq have already spread across the Middle East. While they may be ousting our "allies" we should welcome freedom and budding democracies in the entire Middle East. Democracy in the region, as unlikely as it may have seen 5 years ago, is our biggest asset against terrorism by depriving these groups of their safe havens. Once they have tasted liberty and freedom they will refuse a tyrant's rule again.

_________________
Playoffs or bust....Ya Gotta Believe in 2012, it's why they play the games! Anything can happen.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Doublethink
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:26 am 
User avatar
Online
Legend of NYFS

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:01 am
Posts: 16519
Location: Atlanta
Sending officials for a chat about allowing more freedoms is a bit meaningless when you continue to make them the second largest recipient of US aid in the world, providing the regime with essential funds to stay in power.

As for Iraq being the cause behind these movements, I'm curious how many Arabs you've discussed the issue with.

In any case, we've got a ways to go before we can talk about tasting liberty and freedom. If any of these countries absolutely explodes the way that Iraq did post-invasion, it's got the same potential to set Arab democracy back decades.

My point isn't that these aren't positive developments (they are, and I'm ecstatic), but that making certain statements about what's going to happen going forward is going out on an awfully thin limb.

_________________
Jeff Wilpon should be the last guy to demean someone for failing to get a ring.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Doublethink
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 6:08 pm 
User avatar
Offline
Everyday Player

Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2006 12:59 pm
Posts: 1367
Location: Land of the Nats and Redskins
Northway, let's just say it's an hypothesis. I could come out to be totally wrong, but I am confident that the outcome will be positive.

_________________
Playoffs or bust....Ya Gotta Believe in 2012, it's why they play the games! Anything can happen.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Doublethink
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:18 pm 
User avatar
Online
Legend of NYFS

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:01 am
Posts: 16519
Location: Atlanta
I'm not too optimistic about the US balancing it's desire for democracy in the Middle East with the desire to protect it's own self-interest, considering the hostility towards Hamas governing Palestine. Support for democracy isn't really there, only support for democracy that we like.

_________________
Jeff Wilpon should be the last guy to demean someone for failing to get a ring.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Doublethink
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:56 pm 
User avatar
Offline
NYFS Staff

Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:39 pm
Posts: 21052
Location: Jersey City
For as long as any of us will be alive, there's going to be a conflict between American ideals of freedom and democracy and the fact that the way things are has resulted in us being the most prosperous, powerful country in the history of the world.

At the same time, there is a related paradox. We are a beacon for the rest of the world because of our freedom and prosperity, but because of our unique ability to intervene in other countries' affairs and our willingness to do so, we can do more than any other country to undermine the popular will outside our borders.

_________________
"For years now, young talent has been the source of the Mets’ sales pitch: Trust in the farm. It is the same mantra peddled by all losing teams, a convenient distraction offering optimism for a better tomorrow. The next losing team that does not talk up its farm system will be the first."--Tyler Kepner, NY Times, June 2014

--------------------------------------------------------
You can PayPal donations to donations@nyfuturestars.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Doublethink
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:19 pm 
User avatar
Online
Legend of NYFS

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:01 am
Posts: 16519
Location: Atlanta
I concur Chico, and I don't mean to say that any of that is a bad thing. While I might be pretty far to the left in terms of domestic politics, when it comes to international relations I'm a realist to the max. The US should project it's power, I just don't always agree with its choices in doing so.

_________________
Jeff Wilpon should be the last guy to demean someone for failing to get a ring.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Doublethink
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:48 am 
User avatar
Offline
Everyday Player

Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2006 12:59 pm
Posts: 1367
Location: Land of the Nats and Redskins
Both fair and accurate points Chico and Northway to which there really isn't much of a response. However, Hamas ruling Palestine wouldn't be terrible if they stuck solely to their political side. The issues arise when their terrorist side strikes in Lebanon and Israel. The Palestinians do deserve their own country and the chance to be free, any other view is hypocritical. The issue is what happens if that new state becomes a threat to our national security, which is the problem we face in each situation where we want the people to be free "but on our terms" as some would put it. It is very hard not to contradict yourself in this situation.

_________________
Playoffs or bust....Ya Gotta Believe in 2012, it's why they play the games! Anything can happen.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 29 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group


SUPPORT NYFS VIA OUR NETWORK OF SITES: AA MEETINGS | FIND A JOB NEAR | BOOK REVIEW | ENTERTAIN: MOVIE TV GAME | LAST MINUTE GIFT | GET AUTO HEALTH LIFE HOME INSURANCE QUOTE | DOCTOR HOSPITAL | REPAIR CONTRACTOR | LIVE MUSIC | WHERE VOTE LOCAL CONGRESSMAN | PET FRIENDLY | FILE TAX RETURN 4G SEO PHONES TABLETS | FOR SALE OR RENT | SPORT COURT FITNESS | CHRISTMAS BACK TO SCHOOL BLACK FRIDAY | GOLF BEACH RESORT HOTEL | LOCAL LINKS | INSTALL SOLAR QUOTE ESTIMATE | LOCAL NEWS | FAST SSD HOST METRO BUS TRAIN STATION | CRAFTS DIY RECIPES | WEB TECH SEO TIPS | WEB HOST SERVER | BIRTHDAY PARTY RENT | MANAGED SSD VPS ARTS CRAFTS SUPPLY STORE | HEALTHY HEART DIABETIC | CHURCH TEMPLE MOSQUE | HYBRID SERVER | ATM BANK CONSOLIDATE LOAN RATES | DRUG OXY REHAB | FIND BOOK STORES | WEB SITE BY UMPS © 2014