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 Post subject: Israel, Iran and Nuclear Weapons
PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 8:12 pm 
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Personally, I find it a relief to have an ally so loyal and military strong in the United States. As nations, we both have shared interests. While we may not always see eye-to-eye on issues, our existence will never be mutually exclusive. Our futures will always be tied. Not to mention that the United States could take after Israel in regards to the release of our servicemen with regards to the release of Gilad Shalit after years in Hamas captivity in complete disregard of Geneva Convention and International Law. We have two soldiers missing currently, including Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl, who has been in custody with the Taliban and affiliates since 2009; yet we never hear about Sgt. Bergdahl while in Israel the call for the release of Sgt. Major Shalit was neverending with stars such as Bar Rafaeli calling for his release in addition to politicians.

In the United States, we do not have the collective needs society of Israel, which I believe is partially responsible for the lack of call for the release of our own Sgt. Bow. Furthermore, we are not completely surrounded by enemies like Israel, which makes the prisoner deal all the more remarkable as some of the released prisoners have already sworn revenge on the people of Israel, not the soldiers, while Saudi and Palestinian clerics have called for the capture of more soldiers. To me, this is the inherent issue regarding the Israeli-Iran issue currently ongoing. As a nation, we, as Americans, do not understand what it feels like to be completely surrounded by enemies who have the capability to strike at them at will. September 11th will never be forgotten by anyone in the world. However, as Americans we must realize that the threat we feel everyday has been felt by Israel since their inception and even before. Moreover, they have felt the devastation of terrorists before we were struck. This is not meant to minimize 9/11, which I remember seeing the smoke plume and destruction from my house, however, we do not have the prospects of being attacked by a state with nuclear weapons, nor will our leaders ever truly know the feeling as we live in a very stable region. It is difficult for us to criticize another country for ensuring their safety when we have defied international opinion before to do what we had to do to defend our nation, most recently in Iraq, with Great Britain being the main ally to stay with us. We must stay united with Israel as much like Great Britain, we have a "special relationship," with Israel that must not be compromised. I fear both relationships have suffered in recent years with the US-GB disagreements and President Obama calling out Prime Minister Benyamin Netanyahu recently with the French President.

Prime Minister Netanyahu has experienced the horrors of war while serving in the Sayaret Matkal, Israel's special forces, which have trained some of our SOF soldiers. He has also seen his older brother and legendary Sayaret Matkal soldier, Yonathan Netanyahu, die a hero while attempting to rescue Israelis and other internationals held hostage in Operation Entebbe, where the Sayaret Matkal stormed a hostile Ugandan Airport and airliner to rescue the hostages and the cost of its commander, Yonathan Netanyahu. His younger brother also served in the unit, as has his defense minister, Ehud Barak, who is Israel's most decorated soldier, a distinction shared with a few others. These men know the horrors of terrorists and state-sponsored dictators/terrorist regimes. This no doubt shapes their view points on issues. If I were an Israeli, I would sleep comfortably knowing these people were running my country.

I would be interested in hearing others opinions on this matter, specifically SHIPDA, as I know you have knowledge of Israel's affairs.


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 Post subject: Re: Israel, Iran and Nuclear Weapons
PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 6:05 pm 
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Hilltop wrote:
September 11th will never be forgotten by anyone in the world. However, as Americans we must realize that the threat we feel everyday has been felt by Israel since their inception and even before. Moreover, they have felt the devastation of terrorists before we were struck. This is not meant to minimize 9/11, which I remember seeing the smoke plume and destruction from my house, however, we do not have the prospects of being attacked by a state with nuclear weapons, nor will our leaders ever truly know the feeling as we live in a very stable region. It is difficult for us to criticize another country for ensuring their safety when we have defied international opinion before to do what we had to do to defend our nation, most recently in Iraq, with Great Britain being the main ally to stay with us.


The only connection between 9/11 and Iraq was that it showed how, if the people are frightened enough, you can get away with doing pretty much anything you want, no matter how reckless, irrational, destructive and cynically motivated by personal profit it might be.

This post calls to mind an article I just read at The American Prospect that speaks about how what would be characterized as the Israeli left-wing - which is a part of Israeli politics - is virtually non-existent among Jewish Americans, where the hard right is the norm due to a small number of very loud voices. As a result, for many Americans, a right-wing, hawkish, expansionist Israeli viewpoint is assumed to be the only Israeli viewpoint.

Quote:
High-pitched as Israeli political disputes are—and as eager as the Israeli parliamentary right is to restrict dissent, an Israeli dove visiting Jewish North America can still feel that he's stumbled into a constricted, out-of-joint alternate universe. The moderate Israeli left's argument that West Bank settlements undermine democracy and peace efforts is sometimes greeted in the U.S. as treasonous, sometimes as daringly unconventional. Ideas that have gone extinct in Israel still wander the American landscape, as if it were a Jurassic Park of the mind. What's going on?

Part of the answer is that Jewish politics reflect general American politics, where conservatives hurl forged-in-Fox, counterfactual cannonballs rather than discuss ideas. And the minority of American Jews who are devoted to the single issue of defending Israeli policy, and who can dominate discussion within the Jewish community, inhabit an echo chamber that may be even better sealed than the conservative separate universe in domestic politics. Golda Meir—remembered in Israel as the prime minister who failed to see signs of oncoming war in 1973—is still regarded as a hero in America. (Imagine visiting some distant "pro-American" island where people put up busts of James Buchanan and Herbert Hoover.)


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 Post subject: Re: Israel, Iran and Nuclear Weapons
PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 6:47 pm 
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In this age of cable news, I've always thought Netanyahu had a distinct advantage on American television because of his absolute fluency in American English. It's less an issue of his policy views than his ability to present them.

I'd be interested to know if that same aura comes across domestically in Israel, where he's not speaking English most of the time.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel, Iran and Nuclear Weapons
PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 1:40 am 
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Great point Chico as he was raised in the US but is also the first Israeli born Prime Minister, I believe. I have been some Israeli news sites and publications recently such as ynet and public opinion seems mixed, at best, similar to how the public currently views Afghanistan in this country right now. Additionally, according to Ynet, the majority of Israelis believe even if Iran has nuclear weapons they would never use them on Israel, hence their reluctance to agree to an attack. However, as I am sure Netanyahu and Barak learned in the IDF, you must be preemptive in order to prevent loss of life, which I am sure is the purpose of what they are lobbying for. As I am sure many know, the plan is even controversial in his own party. I am wondering if there was similar concern when Iraq had purchased reactors from France in 1976 with the strike occurring in 1981, as I was not yet alive to bear witness.

I know then as now, Prime Minister Menachem Begin was extremely controversial with many of his actions such as occupying the West Bank and attacking the reactor, which was widely condemned international by even Western nations. While other of Begin's actions were downright borderline illegal such as overlooking the massacres by Christian militias against Muslim refugees who fled Lebanon at camps Sabra and Shatila (Defense Minister, war hero, and former Prime Minister Ariel Sharon was found responsible) along with helping to ignite the Lebanese Civil War, which cost thousands upon thousands of lives. Also, Begin was one of Israel's first revolutionaries when he lead the Zionist movement for a Jewish state and started a paramilitary organization, which attacked the British Mandate in Palestine. It is one of the world's ironies that Navy SEALs were deployed in counter sniper roles to help PLO members evacuate Lebanon, specifically Yasser Arafat, to prevent an Israeli assassination.

Israel faces a situation which is unique in this world where few countries are surrounded by enemies. A nuclear Iran would effect not only Israeli security but American bases and allies in the region. As Israel requires military for all citizens, male and female, almost all know what is at stake, which goes back to Chico's point about the opinions of the Israeli people. A slim margin at my last look favor harsher sanctions to force Iran into economic ruin before engaging militarily. We know that sanctions have failed with Cuba, Iran, Iraq, and Afghanistan under the Taliban, just to name a few. Therefore, it appears Israel feels backed against a wall. Ultimately, I do believe a strike will be carried out in early 2012 with full Israeli parliamentary support and with the majority of Israelis supporting it, as well as allies in the US and Britain. It is in the interests of all involved for this outcome. Netanyahu and Ehud Barak will continue lobbying hard domestically and abroad until they have garnered enough support for a strike. The US does not engage another enemy, Israel is safe, and NATO bases in the area are safe, at least from nuclear attacks. Iran could still launch Shahab missiles, though it would be rare as they would face both Israel and NATO then.


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 Post subject: Re: Israel, Iran and Nuclear Weapons
PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 1:56 am 
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Banger wrote:
Hilltop wrote:
September 11th will never be forgotten by anyone in the world. However, as Americans we must realize that the threat we feel everyday has been felt by Israel since their inception and even before. Moreover, they have felt the devastation of terrorists before we were struck. This is not meant to minimize 9/11, which I remember seeing the smoke plume and destruction from my house, however, we do not have the prospects of being attacked by a state with nuclear weapons, nor will our leaders ever truly know the feeling as we live in a very stable region. It is difficult for us to criticize another country for ensuring their safety when we have defied international opinion before to do what we had to do to defend our nation, most recently in Iraq, with Great Britain being the main ally to stay with us.


The only connection between 9/11 and Iraq was that it showed how, if the people are frightened enough, you can get away with doing pretty much anything you want, no matter how reckless, irrational, destructive and cynically motivated by personal profit it might be.

This post calls to mind an article I just read at The American Prospect that speaks about how what would be characterized as the Israeli left-wing - which is a part of Israeli politics - is virtually non-existent among Jewish Americans, where the hard right is the norm due to a small number of very loud voices. As a result, for many Americans, a right-wing, hawkish, expansionist Israeli viewpoint is assumed to be the only Israeli viewpoint.

Quote:
High-pitched as Israeli political disputes are—and as eager as the Israeli parliamentary right is to restrict dissent, an Israeli dove visiting Jewish North America can still feel that he's stumbled into a constricted, out-of-joint alternate universe. The moderate Israeli left's argument that West Bank settlements undermine democracy and peace efforts is sometimes greeted in the U.S. as treasonous, sometimes as daringly unconventional. Ideas that have gone extinct in Israel still wander the American landscape, as if it were a Jurassic Park of the mind. What's going on?

Part of the answer is that Jewish politics reflect general American politics, where conservatives hurl forged-in-Fox, counterfactual cannonballs rather than discuss ideas. And the minority of American Jews who are devoted to the single issue of defending Israeli policy, and who can dominate discussion within the Jewish community, inhabit an echo chamber that may be even better sealed than the conservative separate universe in domestic politics. Golda Meir—remembered in Israel as the prime minister who failed to see signs of oncoming war in 1973—is still regarded as a hero in America. (Imagine visiting some distant "pro-American" island where people put up busts of James Buchanan and Herbert Hoover.)


Banger, I think it would be an understatement to say we have disagreed in the past about politics as we have completely different thoughts on how to best run the country. I am not here to say one is better than the other, of course, nor was my post meant to insinuate that Iraq was the correct course of action to take. I do believe that at the time, with the facts we were presented with as citizens, that there was an Iraqi threat. Was it as portrayed? No, I do not believe so but then again hindsight is 20/20 as well.

With hindsight, Iran was clearly a bigger threat to us as they have supplied the terrorists, even those with different Islamic interpretations, just to attack the US. Still, I do not think Iran would have been handled the same as Iraq, just like I believe now we would have dealt with Iraq separately. Perhaps Saddam Hussein would have used or sold weapons to terrorists as his army was in tatters, he faced an Iranian himself still, and striking with a proxy was his only way to strike back at the West and America. This is all conjecture by me. However, I do not believe the threat of WMDs, which have been found in Iraq just not in the numbers portrayed, would have found themselves in terrorist hands unless Sadam was cornered. His Ba'ath Party practiced a certain form of Islam, which was criticized by hardliners like the late bin Laden and al-Zawahiri.

My point in regards to Israel is that despite facing overwhelming negative international responses, even by very close allies, it is at times necessary for a country to do what it believes is required for their own survival. At the time, the majority of Americans and both parties in Congress thought the Iraqi threat was very real. As a result, we protected our security despite worldwide condemnation. Therefore, my point is that if Israel is truly threatened by Iran and their program is as far along as experts say, they have every right to launch a preemptive attack to ensure their survival as people, both a nation but a Jewish people. It is hypocritical for other countries to condemn others when they do the same things when they feel their freedom is threatened.


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 Post subject: Re: Israel, Iran and Nuclear Weapons
PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 2:13 am 
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Banger, I have posted below a link to stories about WMDs being found in limited quantities. The articles stated that it does not necessarily signal discovery of WMDs as whole, just in small numbers. Furthermore, the vast majority of of the other reports are directly from the military and were released as part of the tranche of reports by Julian Assange and Wikileaks. I am not trying to refute that there are in fact WMDs buried in the desert or attacks on soldiers with them is prevelant, only that they are there in some form and number. Finally, I would like to try avoid the topic of politics, specifically US politics, unless it is in relation to the Israeli question. I am especially interested in your opinion as we have differed so much in the past, I would like to read your thoughts on the matter. Cheers! Image

Article 1, BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3722255.stm

Quote:
An artillery shell containing a small amount of the nerve gas sarin has exploded in Iraq.


Article 2, Fox News (yeah, yeah I know :lol: ) http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120268,00.html

Quote:
Tests on an artillery shell that blew up in Iraq on Saturday confirm that it did contain an estimated three or four liters of the deadly nerve agent sarin (search), Defense Department officials told Fox News Tuesday.


Article 3, Fox News http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120137,00.html

Quote:
A roadside bomb containing sarin nerve agent (search) recently exploded near a U.S. military convoy, the U.S. military said Monday.
Bush administration officials told Fox News that mustard gas (search) was also recently discovered.


Article 4, Wired http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010/10/wikileaks-show-wmd-hunt-continued-in-iraq-with-surprising-results/

Quote:
An initial glance at the WikiLeaks war logs doesn’t reveal evidence of some massive WMD program by the Saddam Hussein regime — the Bush administration’s most (in)famous rationale for invading Iraq. But chemical weapons, especially, did not vanish from the Iraqi battlefield. Remnants of Saddam’s toxic arsenal, largely destroyed after the Gulf War, remained. Jihadists, insurgents and foreign (possibly Iranian) agitators turned to these stockpiles during the Iraq conflict — and may have brewed up their own deadly agents.


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 Post subject: Re: Israel, Iran and Nuclear Weapons
PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 6:51 pm 
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The paltriness of the findings attests to just how unfounded the justification was for invading.

The problem was that we were not presented with facts. We were given assurances by the administration that compelling evidence existed. It turns out that they had no evidence, only the claims of an informant whom they knew was lying. But instead of demanding proof, Congress, fearing accusations of "being unpatriotic" and "wanting to put our nation at risk", voted to authorize invasion.


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 Post subject: Re: Israel, Iran and Nuclear Weapons
PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 11:04 pm 
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The whole "surrounded by enemies" thing is a bit dated. The governments of Jordan, Egypt, and Lebanon have kept the saber rattling to a minimum for awhile now, and Syria has it's own problems. "Everyone hates us" is a useful meme, but it doesn't really reflect the reality of the geopolitical situation.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel, Iran and Nuclear Weapons
PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 11:24 pm 
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To bring it back to the Israel discussion, it seems that their people have more faith in their government to make the correct decisions and present them with the truth than we in America have in our own government. Disclaimer: the following is my own opinion based on reading about Israel and news articles/accounts. If Israelis were presented with the same revelations about the lake of WMDs in say Syria if they were to invade, I do not believe there would have been the backlash over their government and calling their politicians liars as happened here with President Bush. From what I can gather, the majority of Israelis would view it as removing an enemy hellbent on their destruction. In America, we have forgotten that we are hated by most in the world and our survival is on constant vigilance. While this does not necessarily mean blind faith in our government, it would bother me to think that if the government can lie over WMDs, they can lie about anything.

Maybe it is out of pure optimism that I think there is more that meets the eye in regards to WMDs and Iraq as there is SO much that remains classified, especially anything regarding the IC, SF community, and the military, in general. I do believe this pertains to Iraq. Sure, it would vindicate Bush if it became public knowledge that there were WMDs, while also being extremely frightening. However, perhaps the threat still remaining with regards to militants and WMDs is too great to disclose to the public. Of course, this is complete conjecture, hope really, on my part.

Anyways, I realize what irritates, you and many others is the fact you believe the government misrepresented facts, which if ultimately is true as history passes judgement I will be upset as well. However, right now I feel a lot safer having Saddam and his Ba'athist regime being eliminated from the Middle East, removing a threat to democracies, American allies, and our military bases. I believe Israelis have shown a historical reliance on needing to overlook some discrepancies by their leaders in the interest of their national security. I am of this same belief, as long as no laws are broken and the Constitution is upheld.

P.S. I do not know if you are a fan of Bruce Springsteen. I have never gotten people who cannot separate politics from entertainment as I am a Republican, of course, while also a HUGE Bruce fan as well as a Matt Damon fan. Anyways, I wanted to share with you a quote by The Boss off of his Bruce Springsteen and the E Street Band Live 75-85 album, the intro of his cover of the song, War by Norman Whitfield and Barrett Strong. It was the height of Vietnam and anti-Vietnam sentiments. In his intro, Bruce discusses the need for questioning one's leaders and asking questions before finishing with, "Blind faith in your leaders, or anything, can get you killed."


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 Post subject: Re: Israel, Iran and Nuclear Weapons
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:52 am 
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Hilltop wrote:
In America, we have forgotten that we are hated by most in the world and our survival is on constant vigilance. While this does not necessarily mean blind faith in our government, it would bother me to think that if the government can lie over WMDs, they can lie about anything.


This is a canard. We are not hated by most of the world. Do Chinese people hate Americans? What about Indians? Japanese? Indonesians? Brazilians? I recently saw a survey showing that less than 50% of Arabs hold an unfavorable view of Americans, and that's undoubtedly the region of the world where we are most hated. This isn't to say we're loved by most of the world, but let's not play the victim.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel, Iran and Nuclear Weapons
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 2:01 am 
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I guess that was worded poorly northway. I would venture to say many may hate the way we act around the world or our policies, which is what I was going for more instead of hating the American people as a whole. I think the average Chinese citizen, thinking the rural citizens mainly knows very little of America, while the middle class knows a great deal about us as they frequently do business with our companies. I believe Japanese have a very favorable view of us, along with many Indonesians. I think India has always slightly learned towards the Eastern Bloc such as Russia or the Soviet Union, where they have had several joint military projects together. The problem, I believe, comes as I said with our policies. Perhaps it would be wiser to say they hate our politicians. From my experience traveling throughout western and eastern Europe, the reaction towards myself as an America has been extremely warm. However, no where has it been warmer than in Poland, Japan, Hong Kong, and Malaysia. I apologize for the poor choice of words. However, I will stand by my statements in this post about most of the world disliking many of our policies, the way we handle ourselves (perceived "American arrogance"), and that we involve ourselves in all parts of the region. I heard these from people in all the areas of the world I visited from allies like Germany to "neutral" countries like Singapore. Still, this does not mean that every citizen of these countries dislike us, just like not every Muslim is an extremist, far from it; more Muslims have been killed by extremists than anyone else. Based on your correction, I thought it was necessary to clarify myself.''

EDIT: I just read your point about the Arabs, which is completely true. The Saudis have always viewed us favorable, for the most part, as have the UAE, Jordan, Pakistan, and Egypt, at least since the 1970s. Even the Muslim Brotherhood has a fairly moderate viewpoint towards the United States. I guess it just seems, based on the news, that most of the world hates us :? .


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 Post subject: Re: Israel, Iran and Nuclear Weapons
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 5:35 pm 
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If anything, Europeans hate us more than our enemies...

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