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 Post subject: WMD's/PED's/Random Thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:09 pm 
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Watching the Congressional hearings today with Sec. of State Kerry being questioned led to several thoughts. It seems like chemical weapons has become the PED's of geopolitics - the vast consensus is that they are somehow "different" and intrinsically "worse". Kerry mentioned WWI and the how the young men who suffered led to a general condemnation of poison gas - condemning the machine gun would have saved a lot more lives. Then a bunch of Senators deplored the use of what they called "weapons of mass destruction", vilifying nations that have not explicitly rejected the concept. Again, haven't these weapons only been used twice in history, and by the US?

As with PED's, I see the chemical weapon argument as a distinction without a difference. Can't see how PED's are different than Tommy John surgery or cortisone shots, can't see how bombing civilians is any different than a chemical attack.


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 Post subject: Re: WMD's/PED's/Random Thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:54 pm 
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I had a really long post written and then I read it and was like, "This makes no sense." I agree with you and I disagree with you and even if we were to agree on this subject we still wouldn't agree mainly because I forget the subject due to thinking about the subject. I want to say, though, that this thread inspired much thought and was well received.

This survives my edit:
"Killing folks is wrong no matter what. Even when it is right, it is still wrong."
I know that's not at all what you were getting at, but its feels good and doesn't answer anything.

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 Post subject: Re: WMD's/PED's/Random Thoughts
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:39 pm 
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we have no moral high ground. When Saddam gassed the Kurds, they begged us to help back then, and we ignored them because Saddam was our ally. We used the invasion in 2003 as an excuse for obvious reasons, unrelated to WMDs.

We have zero respect from the international community as of this moment. One good thing about Obama is that he is putting it up to vote, thereby giving us some "little chance" we can avoid a confrontation with Syria and by extension - Iran, their strongest and most powerful regional ally.

I say that facetiously of course, Obama hasnt got a clue if he wants to get us involved in a civil war off the heels of a financial crisis from which we are "barely" recovering from.

That said I wouldnt wanna be in Obama's shoes, not sure why any sane human being would want to be making these type of decisions


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 Post subject: Re: WMD's/PED's/Random Thoughts
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:12 pm 
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Ciarán wrote:
we have no moral high ground. When Saddam gassed the Kurds, they begged us to help back then, and we ignored them because Saddam was our ally. We used the invasion in 2003 as an excuse for obvious reasons, unrelated to WMDs.

We have zero respect from the international community as of this moment. One good thing about Obama is that he is putting it up to vote, thereby giving us some "little chance" we can avoid a confrontation with Syria and by extension - Iran, their strongest and most powerful regional ally.

I say that facetiously of course, Obama hasnt got a clue if he wants to get us involved in a civil war off the heels of a financial crisis from which we are "barely" recovering from.

That said I wouldnt wanna be in Obama's shoes, not sure why any sane human being would want to be making these type of decisions


there is absolutely no intention of committing troops to be involved in their civil war. this is about taking a stand against what many consider to be a despicable act by a cowardly despot; an act which shows that Assad is in such a desperate spot that gassing women and children seems justified and if it goes unanswered will undoubtedly become more of a SOP.

The above by no means implies that I side with any of the extremist groups the govt loyalists are fighting. The point is that gassing of innocent women and children shouldn't be tolerated by the world community. We are well aware that it has unfortunately happened before in history and thankfully the US has leadership that doesn't want to see it happen again. History is littered with examples of countries that decided a policy of "not wanting to get involved" was good for them which resulted in people continuing to be slaughtered by the hundreds and thousands. If we can save lives with air campaign against the delivery systems or better yet by negotiating the removal of the chemical stashes, why shouldn't we?

Moreover, this also doesn't mean that I think bombing innocent women and children is ok. They are obviously the unfortunate casualties of their civil war. It's certainly a debatable issue whether or not we should have played a bigger role prior to the CW event but it really shouldn't be debatable now. Being war-weary from a tragic mis-adventure in Iraq shouldn't be a reason not to do what is right here.


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 Post subject: Re: WMD's/PED's/Random Thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:14 pm 
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But "doing what is right" is a very slippery slope. What will the unintended consequences be? Who will benefit? Will we only respond to despots who use chemical weapons, but not those who use conventional arms to kill innocents?


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 Post subject: Re: WMD's/PED's/Random Thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:33 pm 
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Genmet wrote:
But "doing what is right" is a very slippery slope. What will the unintended consequences be? Who will benefit? Will we only respond to despots who use chemical weapons, but not those who use conventional arms to kill innocents?


I have a hard time understanding the difference between bombing your own people, shooting your own people, starving your own people, enslaving your own people, and gassing your own people. Seems weird to enter a conflict on the basis that people were killed in the wrong kind of way.

In other words: http://theoatmeal.com/comics/syria

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 Post subject: Re: WMD's/PED's/Random Thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:27 pm 
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It is perverse thinking - the idea that somehow a line has been crossed. Propelling shards of metal into humans at high velocity is fine, but leave it at that please.


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 Post subject: Re: WMD's/PED's/Random Thoughts
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 12:28 am 
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Genmet wrote:
But "doing what is right" is a very slippery slope. What will the unintended consequences be? Who will benefit? Will we only respond to despots who use chemical weapons, but not those who use conventional arms to kill innocents?


it's easy to come up with reasons not to get involved.


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 Post subject: Re: WMD's/PED's/Random Thoughts
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:18 pm 
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HeyNowHK wrote:
Genmet wrote:
But "doing what is right" is a very slippery slope. What will the unintended consequences be? Who will benefit? Will we only respond to despots who use chemical weapons, but not those who use conventional arms to kill innocents?


it's easy to come up with reasons not to get involved.


Think of every conflict in American history that we entered without direct provocation. Then consider how successful these interventions were.


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 Post subject: Re: WMD's/PED's/Random Thoughts
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 1:46 am 
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chinabox wrote:
Genmet wrote:
But "doing what is right" is a very slippery slope. What will the unintended consequences be? Who will benefit? Will we only respond to despots who use chemical weapons, but not those who use conventional arms to kill innocents?


I have a hard time understanding the difference between bombing your own people, shooting your own people, starving your own people, enslaving your own people, and gassing your own people. Seems weird to enter a conflict on the basis that people were killed in the wrong kind of way.

In other words: http://theoatmeal.com/comics/syria


I'm late to the party, but hear hear. How is gas more dramatic than systematic sexual abuse as a weapon of war (in a culture where chastity is everything, no less)?

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 Post subject: Re: WMD's/PED's/Random Thoughts
PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:31 am 
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northway wrote:
chinabox wrote:
Genmet wrote:
But "doing what is right" is a very slippery slope. What will the unintended consequences be? Who will benefit? Will we only respond to despots who use chemical weapons, but not those who use conventional arms to kill innocents?


I have a hard time understanding the difference between bombing your own people, shooting your own people, starving your own people, enslaving your own people, and gassing your own people. Seems weird to enter a conflict on the basis that people were killed in the wrong kind of way.

In other words: http://theoatmeal.com/comics/syria


I'm late to the party, but hear hear. How is gas more dramatic than systematic sexual abuse as a weapon of war (in a culture where chastity is everything, no less)?


Unless one thinks the US (or some sort of coalition) should never intervene responding to atrocities, I think it's a mistake to justify inaction in one case based on not having acted in a previous case or, as the cartoon implies, not having acted sooner

I also don't agree that recognizing that it's impossible to act on EVERY case of wrongdoing should prevent action on ANY case of wrongdoing.

That said, intervention should be very rare indeed

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 Post subject: Re: WMD's/PED's/Random Thoughts
PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:05 am 
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Genmet wrote:
Can't see how PED's are different than Tommy John surgery or cortisone shots, can't see how bombing civilians is any different than a chemical attack.


I agree and have been saying this for a while now. Along with eye glasses too! You want to control Barry Bonds production? Make hi mtake off the body armor.

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