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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2007 6:39 pm 
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champstark wrote:
FWIW, it's almost impossible to have a thread that has absolutely nothing offensive in it at all when discussing the things that have been discussed. As long as people don't take it too personally, it's fine. Anyone ever had a conversation between mature adults about politics or religion (with people coming at it from vastly different viewpoints) that doesn't include at least one "that's stupid" or "you are being hypocritical and costing yourself credibility?" Certainly there is a line that can be crossed (and the other thread might have crossed it), but sometimes little things are unavoidable. I know I respect pretty much every poster on here, so even if little things are said in the heat of battle, they aren't personal.

I'm sad to see a thread that had a lot of interesting and quality back and forth be locked because of one silly comment, basically. Things can be removed/asked to be reworded very easily.


It's about a culture of discussion. We want to help foster a community here were people can disagree, and disagree passionately, without having to resort to name calling. That means I'm going to call it out whenever I see it, and so will other posters.

Now, that doesn't mean offensive comments are ruled out. People believe passionately in things, and criticism of them can be offensive to people. What we are after is that the attacks on the other posts are on topic and on target.

Part of the issue as well is that there is never good reason for an ad hominem argument. It's pretty much always a logical fallacy (there are very peculiar cases where it is not), so it doesn't even make the argument stronger. Not only do they detract from the culture we are trying to foster, they do not even help the argument.

My policy always has been, and will continue to be, that in a thread, I will call out an ad hominem post. I will remind that thread to keep it on topic. After a reminder, if it continues, the thread will be locked. If you wish to continue the conversation, you can begin a new topic on the same issue, but be sure that the thread won't survive if it doesn't redirect the discussion back on to the issue.

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 Post subject: Re: Mangey's Unilateral Political Thread Policy
PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 7:34 pm 
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i don't know which way to turn in regards to this bill. the healthcare thing has me so confused. will it cost too much? is it the right thing to do? i don't know.

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 Post subject: Re: Mangey's Unilateral Political Thread Policy
PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:34 pm 
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uapeople wrote:
i don't know which way to turn in regards to this bill. the healthcare thing has me so confused. will it cost too much? is it the right thing to do? i don't know.


I'm with you on this one UA. You can't get a straight answer from anyone who actually knows about what is in the bill, rather than regurgitating political rhetoric, on either side.

As soon as one side says "ABC", the other side says XYZ.
"It's going to save money in the long run."
"It's going to cost so much that we'll never recover."
"We won't have the same choices."
"We'll have more choices."
"We'll pay to insure illegal aliens."
"We're already paying for their medical care, without charge. Now they'll be required to pay for their insurance".
"If you get too sick, the insurance companies will stop your coverage"
"There's nothing in the bill that would even suggest such a thing"
Etc., etc., etc.

It's all very confusing. Unfortunately, the bill itself is so voluminous and complicated, I can't read it intelligently enough to make heads or tails of it. I really don't remember if there was this much confusion when Medicare was being proposed.

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 Post subject: Re: Mangey's Unilateral Political Thread Policy
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 2:18 am 
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uapeople wrote:
i don't know which way to turn in regards to this bill. the healthcare thing has me so confused. will it cost too much? is it the right thing to do? i don't know.


Is it right that people cannot get insurance because of pre-existing conditions? Is it right that if a person loses his job that they also lose their insurance? Is it right for kids just out of college to not be allowed to stay on their parents insurance when many starting salary jobs do not offer health care? Is it right for self-employed people to not be able to be part of a larger pool to lower their premiums the way employees of large corporations or union members can lower their premiums? Is it right that hospitals in poor districts are going out of business while those in more affluent areas are flourishing because of the disproportionate strain treating the uninsured places on the hospitals where a greater amount of residents do not have health insurance? Is it right that the costs of treating the over 31 million uninsured raises all of our premiums? Is it right that seniors living on fixed incomes hit a point about halfway through the year where their prescription drug costs suddenly can jump from a few hundred a month to a few thousand (the infamous donut hole which took my father's costs from $242/month to over $2,000/month)? Is it right for a health insurance policy acquired 7 years ago for $880 per month, now cost $1336 per month, more than a 50% increase (that's my policy)?

Those are just some of the many parts of the bill which point overwhelmingly to it being the right thing to do without even getting into the larger social issue of is it right for the wealthiest nation in the world to not provide health care as a basic right for all its citizens.

As for will it cost too much, the Congressional Budget Office is supposed to be an impartial body, the referee for all bills. They seem to be a much better choice to look to for this answer than either Fox News or MSNBC. The CBO says it will lower the deficit by 138 billion dollars in the first 10 years and lower the deficit by over 1.2 trillion dollars over the first 20 years. When you look at that, it not only is the right thing to do but it is essential if we are to be fiscally responsible.


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 Post subject: Re: Mangey's Unilateral Political Thread Policy
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 12:26 pm 
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Dougdilg,

I'm not debating as to whether or not we need reform. I have no doubt that something must be done.

My question is if this bill is the answer. Since I'm not smart enough to completely understand its benefits versus its problems by simply reading it, I've got to depend on the opinions of the so called experts. I'm well aware of the Congressional Budget Office's evaluation of the fiscal side of the bill. Unfortunately, overall fiscal responsibility is only one portion of the debate. There are personal and fiscal implications that they cannot address. There are questions as to how existing insurance holders will be affected. And who has the answers to that? The partisan politicos. If the bill is so good, why is there such strong opposition? Why is the opposition making every effort to make it appear as though this bill is an Armageddon to the stability of health care to the hard working people of this country? Is it purely politics? Or are there things in the bill that have the potential to truly have a negative impact on health care that its complexity has been able to mask?

These are the questions that, IMO, most clear thinking people have. I'm not talking about the rhetoric that reactionaries are spewing. Unfortunately, the American public, in general, seems to need no more than a thirty second sound bite to formulate its opinions. I want more!

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 Post subject: Re: Mangey's Unilateral Political Thread Policy
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 12:57 pm 
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doowop14 wrote:
Dougdilg,

I'm not debating as to whether or not we need reform. I have no doubt that something must be done.

My question is if this bill is the answer...

These are the questions that, IMO, most clear thinking people have. I'm not talking about the rhetoric that reactionaries are spewing. Unfortunately, the American public, in general, seems to need no more than a thirty second sound bite to formulate its opinions. I want more!


If you are not debating whether or not we need reform, then your answer is yes this bill is the answer because it reforms some of the most grievous problems of our insurance industry - people not being able to get insurance when they need it because of pre-existing conditions, people losing their insurance, people not getting insurance and then arriving at emergency rooms. It fixes so many of these things that when it is undoubtable that we need reform and need it now it is necessary this pass. There are a lot of people who hoped for more but you have to walk before you run and this is a step in the right direction.

We have heard about the need to reform the insurance industry from every Presidential campaign since Truman, from both sides. The fact that it has never happened gives you an idea of how powerful and influential those who profit from the status quo are. All you have to do is look at the debate this year, how people have been manipulated to attack their own self-interests, how they have used people's ignorance and fear to whip them into a frenzy and get up and yell Keep the Government away from my Medicare. People are calling it socialized medicine and a government take-over but when asked what part of a bill which will provide private insurance companies with 30 million new customers is socialism they have no answer. They have no answer because it isn't socialism and they don't know what they are talking about. Which leads one to ask if you don't know what you are talking about why are you yelling?

You are right, no one knows how this will affect the private insurance industry but what we do know is it was the private insurance industry that put itself, and us, in this fix. It was the private insurance industry that decided to concentrate so much of their efforts in not providing health care to those who need it most, that wasn't a government mandate. Their practices, their excessive profits, have led to this need. But the health of the people in this country is more important than the health of the private insurance industry. The government is stepping in and helping to send 30 million new customers into that industry. (That's why you haven't seen insurance stocks plummeting). If they can't make it work then perhaps we will need to go to a non-profit system, something which most of the industrialized nations in the world have gone to. They are being given a 2nd chance, something many people think they don't deserve, so it is up to them to make good on it.

People are naturally distrustful of their Governments for the simple reason no one likes to pay for taxes. But there is a necessary role for government in this society and our efforts should be to make it work for us, not make it do nothing. This is one of the most clear cut examples in recent times of the Government working for the people, for the health of the nation. And the legislators who have the nerve and commitment to public service to do what is right should be applauded.


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