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 Post subject: A National(s) Disaster
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:21 am 
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This is a long, but very interesting read. Having lived through the toxicity of the late 80's early 90's Mets, I can relate.

Perhaps a drastic rebuild is required in Washington. That would make four of the five teams in the Eastern Division in such a mode. This bodes well for the orange and blue, however it will be interesting to see how they respond when they are the hunted rather than the hunters
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/nationals/trade-for-jonathan-papelbon-had-disastrous-results-for-the-nationals/2015/09/30/0aef1564-66ee-11e5-8325-a42b5a459b1e_story.html?postshare=571443633832745


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 Post subject: Re: A National(s) Disaster
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 10:40 am 
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Disco Ball wrote:
This is a long, but very interesting read. Having lived through the toxicity of the late 80's early 90's Mets, I can relate.

Perhaps a drastic rebuild is required in Washington. That would make four of the five teams in the Eastern Division in such a mode. This bodes well for the orange and blue, however it will be interesting to see how they respond when they are the hunted rather than the hunters
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/nationals/trade-for-jonathan-papelbon-had-disastrous-results-for-the-nationals/2015/09/30/0aef1564-66ee-11e5-8325-a42b5a459b1e_story.html?postshare=571443633832745


Very interesting stuff - especially Werth not being told he was out of the lineup and then freaking out and the manager responding by putting him in the lineup. I think most of us suspected heWerth was a big reason the Phils were so tough in 07-09, but it seems his lack of respect for Williams made that clubhouse even worse.

Unfortunately I don't expect the Braves rebuild to take longer than next year - I wouldn't be surprised if they are good in 2017.


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 Post subject: Re: A National(s) Disaster
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 10:47 am 
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The Nats are going to have a very different look by next season with so many FAs likely not to re-sign. But with the core they have in place, it wouldn't make any sense to blow everything up. They've also got some really good prospects that are pretty close. Wouldn't be a huge surprise if they cashed Strasburg in tho, given that he's almost certain to hit the market in 2 more seasons iirc. But I would still expect them to be all in for next season.


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 Post subject: Re: A National(s) Disaster
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 10:55 am 
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HeyNowHK wrote:
The Nats are going to have a very different look by next season with so many FAs likely not to re-sign. But with the core they have in place, it wouldn't make any sense to blow everything up. They've also got some really good prospects that are pretty close. Wouldn't be a huge surprise if they cashed Strasburg in tho, given that he's almost certain to hit the market in 2 more seasons iirc. But I would still expect them to be all in for next season.


What is tough for them is LF/1B. Both of those guys are signed for 2+ more years and they both might be done being producers. Not sure what they can do with the payroll constraints to upgrade the offense. I guess they can just hope that Turner/Rendon/Harper is enough and possibly trade for a CF.


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 Post subject: Re: A National(s) Disaster
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 11:22 am 
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hotlyds87 wrote:
HeyNowHK wrote:
The Nats are going to have a very different look by next season with so many FAs likely not to re-sign. But with the core they have in place, it wouldn't make any sense to blow everything up. They've also got some really good prospects that are pretty close. Wouldn't be a huge surprise if they cashed Strasburg in tho, given that he's almost certain to hit the market in 2 more seasons iirc. But I would still expect them to be all in for next season.


What is tough for them is LF/1B. Both of those guys are signed for 2+ more years and they both might be done being producers. Not sure what they can do with the payroll constraints to upgrade the offense. I guess they can just hope that Turner/Rendon/Harper is enough and possibly trade for a CF.

I don't think Zimmerman or Werth are done. Clearly a bunch of their players were slowed by injuries this year, Rendon and Span most of all. But yeah they'll prob be in the market for a CFer I guess (maybe Parra?), tho they could try to make Taylor/DenDekker work and focus their attention elsewhere. They're only a few tweaks from contending again.


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 Post subject: Re: A National(s) Disaster
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 1:40 pm 
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I don't think they need a rebuild. Williams is likely a goner, that should help. They also have quite a few FAs this year - going into the year that was kinda viewed as a negative, but maybe shaking up the team a bit will help them. (even though the FAs to be werent really viewed as the problem players)

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MarkJohnson>You wrote:
"Wright is greedy" is easily the worst take in the recent history of Mets fandom, and there have been some bad takes in Mets fandom.

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 Post subject: Re: A National(s) Disaster
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 1:52 pm 
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hotlyds87 wrote:
Disco Ball wrote:
This is a long, but very interesting read. Having lived through the toxicity of the late 80's early 90's Mets, I can relate.

Perhaps a drastic rebuild is required in Washington. That would make four of the five teams in the Eastern Division in such a mode. This bodes well for the orange and blue, however it will be interesting to see how they respond when they are the hunted rather than the hunters
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/nationals/trade-for-jonathan-papelbon-had-disastrous-results-for-the-nationals/2015/09/30/0aef1564-66ee-11e5-8325-a42b5a459b1e_story.html?postshare=571443633832745


Very interesting stuff - especially Werth not being told he was out of the lineup and then freaking out and the manager responding by putting him in the lineup. I think most of us suspected heWerth was a big reason the Phils were so tough in 07-09, but it seems his lack of respect for Williams made that clubhouse even worse.


I don't know, it really seems like the lack of respect was earned. With the kind of stuff Williams does publicly - trotting Papelbon out for the ninth after he picks a fight with Harper, for example - can you imagine how he is behind closed doors? Don't you think there comes a point where pretending that everything is okay becomes untenable? Matt Williams manages and speaks about the game as if he never actually played the game himself. It's frankly bizarre that he was one of the better players of his generation given how utterly clueless he seems to everything.

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 Post subject: Re: A National(s) Disaster
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 2:24 pm 
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northway wrote:
hotlyds87 wrote:
Disco Ball wrote:
This is a long, but very interesting read. Having lived through the toxicity of the late 80's early 90's Mets, I can relate.

Perhaps a drastic rebuild is required in Washington. That would make four of the five teams in the Eastern Division in such a mode. This bodes well for the orange and blue, however it will be interesting to see how they respond when they are the hunted rather than the hunters
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/nationals/trade-for-jonathan-papelbon-had-disastrous-results-for-the-nationals/2015/09/30/0aef1564-66ee-11e5-8325-a42b5a459b1e_story.html?postshare=571443633832745


Very interesting stuff - especially Werth not being told he was out of the lineup and then freaking out and the manager responding by putting him in the lineup. I think most of us suspected heWerth was a big reason the Phils were so tough in 07-09, but it seems his lack of respect for Williams made that clubhouse even worse.


I don't know, it really seems like the lack of respect was earned. With the kind of stuff Williams does publicly - trotting Papelbon out for the ninth after he picks a fight with Harper, for example - can you imagine how he is behind closed doors? Don't you think there comes a point where pretending that everything is okay becomes untenable? Matt Williams manages and speaks about the game as if he never actually played the game himself. It's frankly bizarre that he was one of the better players of his generation given how utterly clueless he seems to everything.

Maybe managing a MLB team is little tougher than some around here think it is :)

I'm definitely not singing his praises but there's many sides to these stories and most of them you'll never likely hear about.


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 Post subject: Re: A National(s) Disaster
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 2:28 pm 
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Oldmetfan wrote:
....but there's many sides to these stories and most of them you'll never likely hear about.


True dat.


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 Post subject: Re: A National(s) Disaster
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:05 pm 
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northway wrote:

I don't know, it really seems like the lack of respect was earned. With the kind of stuff Williams does publicly - trotting Papelbon out for the ninth after he picks a fight with Harper, for example - can you imagine how he is behind closed doors? Don't you think there comes a point where pretending that everything is okay becomes untenable? Matt Williams manages and speaks about the game as if he never actually played the game himself. It's frankly bizarre that he was one of the better players of his generation given how utterly clueless he seems to everything.


Williams seems extremely out of touch, for sure. It's just interesting how strong personalities like Werth can make teams and clubhouses better in many instances, but once that strong personality goes against the manager or other players, that person can inspire others and create a bit of a mutinous situation.


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 Post subject: Re: A National(s) Disaster
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:26 pm 
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Isn't this kind of what happened in 2013? And then they bounced back just fine in 2014, and obviously were preseason WS favorites this year.

I don't think every unexpectedly bad season needs to follow a long rebuild. For the most part, their impending FAs were part of the problem this year anyway with the exception of Zimmerman, but who's to say Lerner doesn't just resign him (or spend that money elsewhere)?


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 Post subject: Re: A National(s) Disaster
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:32 pm 
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MarkJohnson>You wrote:
Isn't this kind of what happened in 2013? And then they bounced back just fine in 2014, and obviously were preseason WS favorites this year.

I don't think every unexpectedly bad season needs to follow a long rebuild. For the most part, their impending FAs were part of the problem this year anyway with the exception of Zimmerman, but who's to say Lerner doesn't just resign him (or spend that money elsewhere)?

well, I'd say that with Giolito maybe a half season from breaking in, their rotation by the 2nd half of next year could be Scherzer, Strasburg, Gio, Joe Ross, and Giolito. Not sure I'd consider it a weakness.


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