MESSAGE BOARDS TOOLS:  Search | Members | User Control Panel |   | Login 


All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]

Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 28 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: NFL Playoff Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:26 pm 
User avatar
Offline
NYFS Historian

Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 10:48 pm
Posts: 4467
Location: Darlington County
[quote="MikeH"]Genmet, you may be right that Vick is a "somewhat mediocre NFL QB," but he is one of the best NFL players and quite possibly the hardest to gameplan for.

He is one of the most unique players to ever play the game. He does not have the most accurate arm, but it is one of the strongest in the NFL and he completed 62.6% of his passes this year. And he more than makes up for what he lacks in the passing game with his running.

His record as a starting QB in the NFL is 48-35-1 including playoffs.[/quote

Certainly I don't think he's a bad player, but I disagree completely that he is one of the "best" NFL players. His won-loss record is pretty good, but, without the benefit of the actual data, my guess is that the following QB's have better winning percentages for their careers: Brady, Manning, Rivers, Rodgers, Romo, Big Ben, McNabb, Favre, Delhomme, Eli, Brees, Flacco, Vince Young, Hasselbeck, Orton.
If I'm far off on these I'll certainly eat crow, but I can't find the actual records. And that doesn't include really young guys - certainly Sanchez, Freeman, Ryan all do.

On Edit - Found the data, looked at it quickly. I think I was only wrong on Hasselbeck - the others all had better records than Vick.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: NFL Playoff Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:15 pm 
User avatar
Offline
NYFS Staff

Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2006 10:10 pm
Posts: 3668
Location: Infected with D'evils...
Genmet wrote:
No, he didn't play poorly. He played mediocre, which is what every single thing about his entire career suggests that he is - a mediocre NFL QB.


What makes him mediocre? Because I feel like, with him, you HAVE to take into account that he runs. His passer rating was 4th best in the league. And that's not factoring in his running. Take that into account, and he was probably the 2nd best in the league this year.

And in this game, Avant catches that ball or Celek doesn't step out of bounds, and his end result looks a whole lot better.

Get him a better O-line and I doubt he has as poor an end to the season as he did.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: NFL Playoff Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:35 pm 
User avatar
Offline
NYFS Historian

Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 10:48 pm
Posts: 4467
Location: Darlington County
dalek wrote:
Genmet wrote:
No, he didn't play poorly. He played mediocre, which is what every single thing about his entire career suggests that he is - a mediocre NFL QB.


What makes him mediocre? Because I feel like, with him, you HAVE to take into account that he runs. His passer rating was 4th best in the league. And that's not factoring in his running. Take that into account, and he was probably the 2nd best in the league this year.

And in this game, Avant catches that ball or Celek doesn't step out of bounds, and his end result looks a whole lot better.

Get him a better O-line and I doubt he has as poor an end to the season as he did.


I know passer rating gets a bad name, but year after year the best QB's are at the top of the league in this stat. So we can start there. Yes, Vick had an excellent year by his standards, but historically he's 23rd among active players, tied with Eli. In one of my favorite stats, yards per pass attempt, he's tied for 16th among actives. In pass completion % he's 36th among actives. In interception % he's 16th among actives.
Now, in all these important stats he's anywhere from mediocre (16th) to downright awful (36th). I agree he gets a huge boost for his rushing prowess. So the pure passing data says he's kind of awful, let's boost him to somewhere around mediocre with his rushing ability.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: NFL Playoff Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:23 pm 
User avatar
Offline
NYFS Staff

Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2006 10:10 pm
Posts: 3668
Location: Infected with D'evils...
Genmet wrote:
I know passer rating gets a bad name, but year after year the best QB's are at the top of the league in this stat. So we can start there. Yes, Vick had an excellent year by his standards, but historically he's 23rd among active players, tied with Eli. In one of my favorite stats, yards per pass attempt, he's tied for 16th among actives. In pass completion % he's 36th among actives. In interception % he's 16th among actives.
Now, in all these important stats he's anywhere from mediocre (16th) to downright awful (36th). I agree he gets a huge boost for his rushing prowess. So the pure passing data says he's kind of awful, let's boost him to somewhere around mediocre with his rushing ability.


Okay. But, let's just say he did "grow" as a GB and this is the new Michael Vick. If he has a similar year next year, would you then agree he's better than mediocre? 'Cause basing it entirely on pre-2009 isn't fair. It would be like discussing Cliff Lee and only talking about pre-2008 Cliff Lee.

This year, going by the stats you mentioned, he was 4th in yards per pass attempt, ahead of Tom Brady. He was 10th in completion % and 6th in interception %.

I think what it comes down to is he's not as good as I want him to be and not as bad as you want him to be.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: NFL Playoff Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:20 am 
User avatar
Offline
Franchise Player

Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 3:57 pm
Posts: 3623
Location: Shea
Peyton Manning averaged 6.9 yards per pass attempt this year. Michael Vick averaged 6.8 yards per rush this year. And for his career, Vick averages 7.1 yards per rush.

Vick's ability to run makes him one of the best players in the NFL.

Also, when going back and looking at the team around Vick in Atlanta it is pretty amazing he won at all. He really didn't have much to work with. Peerless Price, Alge Crumpler, a very young Roddy White, Warrick Dunn, Brian Finneran, and that's about it. They went 11-5 in 2004 and Alge was the leading reciever with 48 catches and 774 yards. And it is not like their defense was a world beater either. How did that team in 2004 win?

_________________
Run it up, Herman! Leave no doubt!
-Coach Yoast


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: NFL Playoff Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:26 am 
User avatar
Offline
NYFS Historian

Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 10:48 pm
Posts: 4467
Location: Darlington County
Quote:
Okay. But, let's just say he did "grow" as a GB and this is the new Michael Vick. If he has a similar year next year, would you then agree he's better than mediocre?


Oh yes, that's entirely a fair point. I guess I'm just not buying that we have a "new" Mike Vick based on the last several weeks. But the Vick that played for much of this year was a very good player.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: NFL Playoff Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:50 am 
User avatar
Offline
NYFS Staff

Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:39 pm
Posts: 22630
Location: Jersey City
Vick is a freakishly good athlete, probably the best running QB in NFL history.

But I think this season again raises the question of whether a quarterback who runs as much as he does can truly succeed in the NFL.

People who run the ball in the NFL take a physical beating. And all QBs take a special kind of beating, which is why they have all the rules to protect them.

Vick was performing as well as he possibly can earlier in the year. But he missed games and he was not the same at the end that he was for much of the rest of the season.

Taking all that into account, you have to wonder if he can ever be at peak fitness by the time the playoffs come around.

And no team with him as its starting QB can leave itself without a capable backup. Given what QBs cost, that puts a big strain on the salary cap.

_________________
Hats off to Sandy. Hats off to the Wilpons. And don't forget Yoenis Cespedes, a star who wanted to stay a Met.

--------------------------------------------------------
You can PayPal donations to donations@nyfuturestars.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: NFL Playoff Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:00 am 
User avatar
Offline
NYFS Staff

Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2006 6:15 pm
Posts: 39133
Location: The District
Chico wrote:
But I think this season again raises the question of whether a quarterback who runs as much as he does can truly succeed in the NFL.


I don't mean to single you out, Chico, but I don't know what it is about the NFL that makes people frame questions like this. The league is so completely bogged down in (often contradictory) conventional wisdom and all of it turns out to be either outright false or only true when you're looking at something with a microscope.

Defense wins championships -- except when it doesn't. You need a top flight QB to win a SuperBowl -- except when you don't. You have to be able to run the ball -- except when that's not true. You can't win it all with a running QB -- except when someone does.

The reason it seems like it's not possible to win a championship with Mike Vick is that there's only one of him. If there were six players who had his skill set (lord help those defenses) it would seem much more likely that "a quarterback who runs as much as he does can truly succeed." If you look at any QB who hasn't won a championship, it's pretty easy to bet against him and then declare that he "just doesn't have it" for whatever reason (like Eli Manning, until he won it all and we watch that C.V. disappear into the ether).

We know that Vick *can* win a championship because he has annihilated great football teams with his skillset. Whether he will is a completely different question, but our desire to make big declarations about "what it takes" makes us question Vick's skills in a way that doesn't jive with what we've all seen him do on the field IMO.

Sidenote: I think this kind of argument is something Genmet would agree with even though he thinks Mike Vick is THE WORST QUARTERBACK IN THE WORLD.

_________________
“Patience is not a virtue unless you take advantage of it by exercising it well,” Alderson said. “Patience is only part of a strategy.”


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: NFL Playoff Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:38 pm 
User avatar
Offline
NYFS Historian

Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 10:48 pm
Posts: 4467
Location: Darlington County
Yes, you're right China (and that itself flies in the face of Conventional Wisdom). In fact, before I even got to the "sidenote", I was thinking that this argument was the very one I posted in the NBA forum about the CW that a Mike D'Antoni system can't win in the playoffs -regardless of the fact that it has won many, many times in the playoffs!
There is no formula for success - in fact, very often the best team doesn't win.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: NFL Playoff Thread
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 8:55 pm 
Offline
Legend of NYFS

Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 4:56 am
Posts: 12685
Location: hanging with Tony B in the clubhouse
Every time I see Joe Flacco play, he looks terrible.

The Ravens will kick themselves all off-season over losing this game. They have no one to blame but themselves. The Steelers were begging them to take this game, they just gave it away with stupid penalties, drops, fumbles, poor decisions by the QB; just an awful game by the Ravens.

_________________
Anyone who quotes profits of a baseball club is missing the point. Under generally accepted accounting principles, I can turn a $4 million profit into a $2 million loss, and I can get every national accounting firm to agree with me. - Paul Beeston, CEO of the Toronto Blue Jays


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: NFL Playoff Thread
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:14 pm 
User avatar
Offline
NYFS Historian

Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 10:48 pm
Posts: 4467
Location: Darlington County
Yes, they need to move on from Flacco. I guess he's servicable, but he sure makes it hard for his team to go where they want to go.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: NFL Playoff Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:57 am 
User avatar
Offline
Legend of NYFS

Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:56 pm
Posts: 59192
The game, and everyone's impression of Flacco, are a lot different if Anquan Boldin doesn't have a go-ahead TD with less than 4 minutes remaining bounce off his hands and chest.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 28 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Majestic-12 [Bot] and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group


SUPPORT NYFS VIA OUR NETWORK OF SITES: FIND AN AA MEETING | FIND A JOB NEAR YOU | SUICIDE DEPRESSION ADDICTION HELP | BOOK REVIEWS EDITORIAL | LOCAL DOCTORS HOSPITAL EMERGENCY CARE | HOME REPAIR CONTRACTOR BUILDER AC HEAT | LOCAL LIVE MUSIC OPEN MIC JAM | FIND YOUR CONGRESSMAN AND WHERE TO VOTE | WOMEN VETERANS HELP SUPPORT AND RESOURCES | THE SOULCIALISTS LIVE LOCAL PIANO MUSIC TREASURE COAST | PET FRIENDLY PARKS HOTELS | SOLAR WIND RENEWABLE POWER | FILE TAX RETURN ATTORNEY | 4G SEO SMART PHONES TABLET WEB | BIRTHDAY PARTY RENTAL CHARACTERS | HOMES APARTMENTS FOR SALE OR RENT NEAR YOU | SPORT COURT GYM FITNESS CLUB TRACK FIELD | GOLF BEACH RESORT HOTELS RESTAURANTS BED BREAKFAST | HEALTH LIFE AUTO HOME INSURANCE QUOTE | METRO BUS TRAIN SUBWAY AIRPORT HELIPORT | VETERAN TIPS CRAFT DIY RECIPES | ATM BRANCH CONSOLIDATION STUDENT CREDIT LOAN RATES | LOCAL NEWS AND RSS FEEDS | CHRISTMAS BLACK FRIDAY BACK TO SCHOOL SALE | LATEST E NEWS ON MOVIES TV GAMES GIFTS BOOKS | LAST MINUTE ANNIVERSARY BIRTHDAY HOUSE WARMING GIFTS NEAR YOU | LOCAL ARTS CRAFTS SUPPLY STORE | LOCAL HEALTHY HEART DIABETIC RESTAURANTS AND STORES | CHURCH TEMPLE MOSQUE OR PLACE OF WORSHIP NEAR YOU | LOCAL LINKS TO RESTAURANTS AIRPORTS DRUG STORES | DRUG OXY OPIATE ALCOHOL PHYSICAL REHAB | SUICIDE HOTLINE DANIELLE COLBERT PHOTO MUG SHOT | © Untraditional Media

The%20Soulcialists