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 Post subject: Re: Ridiculous finish in Seattle; Green Bay screwed over
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:58 pm 
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thebull wrote:
Nutsacjac wrote:
thebull wrote:
I think everyone is seeing this wrong. IMO, Tate had his left arm on the ball from the beginning, and he got his right hand on it before Jennings hit the floor---hence, simultaneous possession. It's hard to tell where Tate's left arm is on the replays they've been showing but I'm pretty sure it's between the ball and Jennings chest. I think Jennings may have had "more" control or possession but I think it still falls under simultaneous possession. It's not a catch until Jennings hits the floor and when that happens Tate has both arms on the ball.


Tate tried to rip the ball from Jennings, the ball was in Jennings' chest with both hands.


I'm sorry but that's just wrong. Tate's hand is between Jennings chest and the ball the whole time.


That's incorrect, Tate's right hand flops in the air aimlessly for a bit...he then actually GRABS JENNINGS FACEMASK, before eventually reclaiming a spot on the ball.....

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_ro ... 1348545873


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 Post subject: Re: Ridiculous finish in Seattle; Green Bay screwed over
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:28 pm 
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jamaicanjetfan wrote:
thebull wrote:

I'm sorry but that's just wrong. Tate's hand is between Jennings chest and the ball the whole time.


That's incorrect, Tate's right hand flops in the air aimlessly for a bit...he then actually GRABS JENNINGS FACEMASK, before eventually reclaiming a spot on the ball.....

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_ro ... 1348545873


His LEFT hand.


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 Post subject: Re: Ridiculous finish in Seattle; Green Bay screwed over
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:48 pm 
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One hand on the ball doesn't constitute a simultaneous catch.

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 Post subject: Re: Ridiculous finish in Seattle; Green Bay screwed over
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:27 pm 
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The simultaneous possession rule points to "gaining control." That refers exclusively to the grasping of the ball. Jennings clearly grasped the ball, and the moment he did that, that would constitute "gaining control" even though he was still in the air. Tate may have had one hand on it but his other hand (right) clearly wasn't, thus it's not simultaneous possession.

Former official and officiating supervisor Jim Daopoulos came to the same conclusion (see the quote in my previous post). Mike Francesa also quoted some former official or officiating supervisor saying that the pass interference would never be called anyway (which is fair, even if kind of ridiculous in general) but that the play was absolutely not simultaneous possession.

I've yet to see any evidence that they made the right call. Everything I've read today about the call, rules, and quoting of people who know this stuff more in-depth than we do have pointed to the same thing: it was the wrong call. Even the league's official statement sent out today did nothing to help defend them.


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 Post subject: Re: Ridiculous finish in Seattle; Green Bay screwed over
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:41 pm 
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nmigliore wrote:
The simultaneous possession rule points to "gaining control." That refers exclusively to the grasping of the ball. Jennings clearly grasped the ball, and the moment he did that, that would constitute "gaining control" even though he was still in the air. Tate may have had one hand on it but his other hand (right) clearly wasn't, thus it's not simultaneous possession.

Former official and officiating supervisor Jim Daopoulos came to the same conclusion (see the quote in my previous post). Mike Francesa also quoted some former official or officiating supervisor saying that the pass interference would never be called anyway (which is fair, even if kind of ridiculous in general) but that the play was absolutely not simultaneous possession.


You can't have sufficient control for a catch until you've hit the ground. At the moment Jennings hit the ground, all four hands were on the ball--maybe he had "more" control of it but I think it's reasonable to call it a simultaneous catch. Most people seem to be ignoring the fact that Tate's left hand/arm is on the ball, probably because it's hard to see it in the videos. It's also a much better story for ESPN and the like to keep harping on it rather than admitting that maybe they're wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: Ridiculous finish in Seattle; Green Bay screwed over
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:58 pm 
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So everyone is suddenly uneducated on the subject and/or is conspiring just to make a big story out of it? Even former NFL officials who know this stuff like the back of their hand? I find that hard to believe, not to mention my own two eyes still tell me the same thing, which is that there's no way that was simultaneous possession.


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 Post subject: Re: Ridiculous finish in Seattle; Green Bay screwed over
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:00 pm 
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Best 'Call Me Maybe' parody yet:



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 Post subject: Re: Ridiculous finish in Seattle; Green Bay screwed over
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:03 pm 
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nmigliore wrote:
So everyone is suddenly uneducated on the subject and/or is conspiring just to make a big story out of it? Even former NFL officials who know this stuff like the back of their hand? I find that hard to believe, not to mention my own two eyes still tell me the same thing, which is that there's no way that was simultaneous possession.


I wouldn't say they're uneducated, but I would say they're disregarding Tate's left hand because it's out of sight in all of the replays. When you just look at the regular angle it looks like Tate is just putting his right arm on top of the guy who caught the ball. In reality, Tate's left arm is actually between Jennings' chest and the ball.

And of course ESPN is going to let the narrative drive the truth in a situation like this. They've been jumping on the replacement refs incompetence story since the beginning.


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 Post subject: Re: Ridiculous finish in Seattle; Green Bay screwed over
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:26 pm 
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I guess we'll just agree to disagree since we're going nowhere with this. You think it's the right call, I don't. Oh well. Whatever we or anyone else believes won't change what happened.

These replacement refs are still really lousy in general though. I think you'd have to be living under a rock to dispute that. Obviously I do not watch every NFL game every week but I do plenty of reading and reviewing afterward and the amount of incompetence extends much further than what you see from the regular officials, between giving a team extra challenges to wrongly spotting a ball 12 yards upfield in overtime (and those are just 2 errors from 2 games from this past week; you can easily go on finding errors in other games from this week and the prior 2 weeks).

Hopefully the NFL stops being cheap and hurting the integrity of its game over what is pennies to them. I still expect a deal to get done soon after this fiasco.


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 Post subject: Re: Ridiculous finish in Seattle; Green Bay screwed over
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:37 pm 
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nmigliore wrote:
I guess we'll just agree to disagree since we're going nowhere with this. You think it's the right call, I don't. Oh well. Whatever we or anyone else believes won't change what happened.

These replacement refs are still really lousy in general though. I think you'd have to be living under a rock to dispute that. Obviously I do not watch every NFL game every week but I do plenty of reading and reviewing afterward and the amount of incompetence extends much further than what you see from the regular officials, between giving a team extra challenges to wrongly spotting a ball 11 yards upfield in overtime (and those are just 2 errors from 2 games from this past week; you can easily go on finding errors in other games from this week and the prior 2 weeks).

Hopefully the NFL stops being cheap and hurting the integrity of its game over what is pennies to them. I still expect a deal to get done soon after this fiasco.


Yup, I totally agree they need to be replaced as soon as possible. They're in over their heads.


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 Post subject: Re: Ridiculous finish in Seattle; Green Bay screwed over
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:02 am 
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nmigliore wrote:
These replacement refs are still really lousy in general though.


It's not their fault. They're just grossly unqualified to do the job. Some of these replacement refs were fired from the Pac 12 and the Lingerie Football League due to incompetence and they're supposed to be able to referee NFL games, where the players are way bigger and MUCH faster?

This isn't a job where you can just hire people off the street and not miss a beat. Experience counts a bunch. The regular refs miss calls too, but they have far better administration of the game and the players and coaches respect them.

The NFL owners won't give in. They don't have to. People will bitch and moan, but they're not going to stop watching the games and support the product which is what really matters to them.

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Anyone who quotes profits of a baseball club is missing the point. Under generally accepted accounting principles, I can turn a $4 million profit into a $2 million loss, and I can get every national accounting firm to agree with me. - Paul Beeston, CEO of the Toronto Blue Jays


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 Post subject: Re: Ridiculous finish in Seattle; Green Bay screwed over
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:32 am 
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Right - the league and its owners are the main blame here. The officials are lousy because they don't belong anywhere near an NFL field but the league's cheapness and rather poor vetting is the reason they are.


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