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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:21 pm 
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metswiki wrote:
Guys who might be free agents in two years don't do much for me. You get a couple of guys who get injured, a couple of guys who sign with their current teams, a couple of guys who sign with other clubs just because the Knicks are a disaster and they don't want the pressure of being tabbed the savior, and then you get two years of suckitude for nothing.

I'm glad they'll be under the cap and be able to do something, but there's zero reason to watch this team for two years, now. It's not that I don't understand the theory, just... woohoo Cuttino Mobley to Al Harrington. Yay.

They were fun for 10 games.



could not disagree more.

the least inspiring athletic franchise in the world is an nba team with a 40 win ceiling.

the nba is the one sport where it is just impossible to eke into the playoffs and run the table.

it just does not happen

there are no 06 cardinals that find a jeff weaver and suppan and beat superior teams in 4 rounds.

you don't catch beltran looking 4 times in a row in the nba.

you cannot win titles that way in the nba

you don't get eli manning and wild card champions or teams riding hot goalies.

you get elite champions.

When was the last time that an NBA champion came into the playoffs at just over .500?

That's the ceiling for the knicks this year and next if they hung onto their players -- and that's not the type of team that wins a title.

The Heat were 52-30 when they won their title -- the lowest win total for any champ since the bullets in 1978 -- but they were the #1 seed in the east the year before at 59 - 23 -- that's an entirely different league of team than the knicks would be.

and look at the win totals of other champions since 99-2000

celtics had 66
spurs -- 58 in a brutal conference
heat 52
spurs 59
pistons 54
spurs 60
lakers 58
lakers 56
lakers 67

you are generally talking high 50s in wins here -- that's very different than a 42 win team going in and knocking off 4 better teams.

that simply doesn't happen -- and this knick team isn't going to be a 56 win team at all.

the knicks, as entertaining as they were (and that's only in comparisson to isiah's mess because this team certainly has had its own disasters as they are barely above .500 and really looked awful at times, notably down the stretch against dallas) have zero, and i mean zero meaningful ceiling, and no financial flexibility to acquire the talent to make themselves into a team witha meaningful ceiling.

In a sport with a cap, and in a sport in which you are not a title contender unless you are a truly elite team with a true superstar (who is the last champion without a superstar -- garnett, kobe, duncan sheed/billups/rip, shaq/wade come to mind) -- if you cannot win in your current incarnation, it is so much smarter to position yourself to meaningfully contend as soon as possible than it is to pretend that you are a contender and instead embrace mediocrity year after year.

great going knicks!

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 9:00 am 
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right, i hear you guys. Again, I understand the move, I was just enjoying rooting for these guys for the first time in like a decade.

I'm not saying I don't think it's the right move, just that it's frustrating to have wasted 10 years to get to this point.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 12:37 pm 
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gillyruless wrote:
Randolph is gone too. Hello, Mr. James. It does suck that the Knicks will be bad for two more years but in two years, we might very well be seeing a Knick team that might contend for the Championship.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baske ... harri.html


cute doggie! :)

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 1:51 pm 
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Harrington is a solid all-around player. He's still young. On this roster he will probably get more minutes than his days at Indiana or Golden State.

Great move by Walsh.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 4:23 pm 
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Obviously, the Knicks are blowing it up to lay the groundwork for 2010.

But I wouldn't underestimate D'Antoni's ability to make it entertaining in the interim.

He's already remade the team in one training camp. Curry and Marbury were cornerstones of whatever it was Isiah was trying to do. They're still in the organization collecting a lot of money but D'Antoni left them completely behind and produced a pretty exciting product.

There's no reason he can't do the same in the wake of these moves. And it could exactly be easier to keep moving forward because he's actually replacing the departed players with other players instead of just making them go away.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 4:40 pm 
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Just as far as the next two years, replacing Randolph, Crawford and Collins with Harrington, Mobley, and Thomas isn't downgrading in talent at all.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 8:53 pm 
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Like the other thread great moves by the Knicks.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 9:07 pm 
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thebull wrote:
Just as far as the next two years, replacing Randolph, Crawford and Collins with Harrington, Mobley, and Thomas isn't downgrading in talent at all.


after a day i wholly agree

i'm watching knicks pregame -- i really think after a day of reflection that the knicks really are not going to lose that much off their present squad through this trade. I think they still are going to be entertaining and still make the playoffs.

Crawford and Randolph's numbers look fanstastic partially because they have a huge amount of opportunities to score under this particular system.

Sure in vacuum, Crawford's 19.6 points are more than Mobley's 13.5 ppg -- but Mobley wasn't playing in the D'Antoni offense. Also, Mobley is just getting hot -- his last 3 games are 23, 19 and 18 points.

As for Harrington, his main issue is motivation. Two years ago as a starter, he averaged 17 & 6 rebounds. However, dropped to 6th man, he has really not been happy. Listening to Knicks pregame, the NJ native who grew up a Knick fan was giddy. He remarked that he "felt like he was where he belongs, finally" and like he was "21 again" . He is only 28 years old and has both the speed to thrive in a transition-based offense and the physicality that the knicks lack.

As for Thomas, he has already had experience with D'antoni, and it was remarkably positive. He was traded to Pheonix in the 2005-06 season with only 26 games to play. In that short time he became a big part of the team, allowing D'Antoni to lean on him hard in the playoffs. In 20 playoff games, he put up 15 ppg and 6 rpg in only 30 minutes a night. And at only 31 years old, there's no reason he should be in decline.

So the knicks gave up approx. 40 points a night from the current team, and added a projectable 40 points a night -- and I believe that is a conservative estimate of what those three players will do combined a night for the rest of the season.

It may look different, in that no one of these three players will be as domnating as Z-bo has been this season, but after running the numbers, I am not sure why the gut reaction is that the Knicks are going to be consigned to absolute suck from here out -- especially in a weak east.

thoughts?

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 3:28 am 
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jpkmets wrote:
thebull wrote:
Just as far as the next two years, replacing Randolph, Crawford and Collins with Harrington, Mobley, and Thomas isn't downgrading in talent at all.


after a day i wholly agree

i'm watching knicks pregame -- i really think after a day of reflection that the knicks really are not going to lose that much off their present squad through this trade. I think they still are going to be entertaining and still make the playoffs.

Crawford and Randolph's numbers look fanstastic partially because they have a huge amount of opportunities to score under this particular system.

Sure in vacuum, Crawford's 19.6 points are more than Mobley's 13.5 ppg -- but Mobley wasn't playing in the D'Antoni offense. Also, Mobley is just getting hot -- his last 3 games are 23, 19 and 18 points.

As for Harrington, his main issue is motivation. Two years ago as a starter, he averaged 17 & 6 rebounds. However, dropped to 6th man, he has really not been happy. Listening to Knicks pregame, the NJ native who grew up a Knick fan was giddy. He remarked that he "felt like he was where he belongs, finally" and like he was "21 again" . He is only 28 years old and has both the speed to thrive in a transition-based offense and the physicality that the knicks lack.

As for Thomas, he has already had experience with D'antoni, and it was remarkably positive. He was traded to Pheonix in the 2005-06 season with only 26 games to play. In that short time he became a big part of the team, allowing D'Antoni to lean on him hard in the playoffs. In 20 playoff games, he put up 15 ppg and 6 rpg in only 30 minutes a night. And at only 31 years old, there's no reason he should be in decline.

So the knicks gave up approx. 40 points a night from the current team, and added a projectable 40 points a night -- and I believe that is a conservative estimate of what those three players will do combined a night for the rest of the season.

It may look different, in that no one of these three players will be as domnating as Z-bo has been this season, but after running the numbers, I am not sure why the gut reaction is that the Knicks are going to be consigned to absolute suck from here out -- especially in a weak east.

thoughts?


Well, I obviously completely agree. Randolph and Crawford were pretty one-dimensional, especially Crawford. They both played no defense. Mobley is a good shooter, more efficient than Crawford and a better defender. Harrington is a similar player to Z-Bo, little worse rebounder but a better 3-point shooter. And Thomas should thrive under D'Antoni.

Also, look at it this way. We added 3 solid players to play in our rotation, and only lost 2 solid players. This means zero minutes for Collins (obviously as he is gone) and less/zero minutes for the horrible Malik Rose.

Win, win trade for the Knicks.


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