MESSAGE BOARDS TOOLS:  Search | Members | User Control Panel |   | Login 


All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]

Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 66 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Knicks-Nets rivalry
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:58 am 
User avatar
Offline
Legend of NYFS

Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 3:37 am
Posts: 10098
MarkJohnson>You wrote:
thebull wrote:
It's also kind of crazy to try to use something like "win shares" in basketball--basketball is a team sport; baseball is essentially an individual sport and so it's easier to attempt to quantify such things.



Kind of crazy, as in, kind of like justifying an evaluation based on a prognostication of eventual roles and how guys will respond and predicting rapid age-based declines that would marginalize what is currently a pretty significant talent and effectiveness difference?

I'm not saying using b-ref's win shares is a fool-proof argument, but if its that or judging, on a comparative basis, how valuable a guy is going to be by guessing their increased/decreased role, how their psyche is effected, how schematically they might adjust, predicting rapid age based decline at an arbitrary cutoff point (36 is baddddd, 34 is fine)....I know which one seems a lot more tangible and justifiable to me.


Actually, it is much crazier to use the win shares argument in basketball (at least to me) than it is to try to look at a role someone is going to play and the age of said players. Pierce is obviously a better player than Artest but that does not necessarily mean he's a better addition to a certain team--it's not like baseball where many of the player's stats almost happen in a vacuum disconnected from the rest of the team (especially on offense). Pierce will obviously help the Nets but it seems he's being added to the team in a similar fashion to the way Malone and Payton were added to the Lakers for that one season (yes I realize the Lakers made the Finals that year)--not as an integral feature player but as a veteran role player.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Knicks-Nets rivalry
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:08 pm 
User avatar
Offline
Legend of NYFS

Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:56 pm
Posts: 59186
thebull wrote:
Pierce is obviously a better player than Artest but that does not necessarily mean he's a better addition to a certain team


When in doubt, I'd say you can pretty safely conclude that the better player is the better addition. I'm not I understand the argument you're making here - it'd be one thing if you required a big who rebounds and defends and instead got a 7 foot spot up shooter who might be the softest big in basketball as an argument for the sum of the parts don't equal the individual abilities(::ahem::) but the Nets had a serious deficiency at the 3 last year and they got pretty much the best guy available for that spot.


thebull wrote:
Pierce will obviously help the Nets but it seems he's being added to the team in a similar fashion to the way Malone and Payton were added to the Lakers for that one season (yes I realize the Lakers made the Finals that year)--not as an integral feature player but as a veteran role player.


I mean you address this point in your post - if your best argument as to where this may go awry for the Nets is the 2003-2004 Lakers - yeah, I'll take my chances with that model (especially considering Payton was REALLY good for that team and Malone was way more guarded than Garnett or Pierce will be, but yet was still very effective when they did use him).


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Knicks-Nets rivalry
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:21 am 
User avatar
Offline
Legend of NYFS

Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 3:37 am
Posts: 10098
MarkJohnson>You wrote:

When in doubt, I'd say you can pretty safely conclude that the better player is the better addition. I'm not I understand the argument you're making here - it'd be one thing if you required a big who rebounds and defends and instead got a 7 foot spot up shooter who might be the softest big in basketball as an argument for the sum of the parts don't equal the individual abilities(::ahem::) but the Nets had a serious deficiency at the 3 last year and they got pretty much the best guy available for that spot.


It's a pretty easy argument to understand-- when you have teams that already have their stars in place just the fact that one team adds the "better" player doesn't mean that it's a better addition for that team. It's because basketball is more of a team sport than an individual sport where you can use something like someone's "win shares" to determine how much better a team is getting. It's just not that straightforward. And I never said SF wasn't a position of need, I said that an argument can be made that Artest might have a bigger impact for the Knicks than Pierce does for the Nets. We'll see.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Knicks-Nets rivalry
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 1:28 pm 
User avatar
Offline
Exec. VP Baseball Operations

Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:55 am
Posts: 8276
WOW NBA talk on NYFS!! Always thought it was strange how we discussed the Knicks and Nets more when they were horrible than recently when they have both been good.

I said last year when there was all this talk of the Nets being better than the Knicks that I just didn't see it.

This year I am buying it though. Not a Bargs fan at all and the way Lopez developed last year and the way Deron finished the year, with the additions of Garnett and Pierce I think they will be a much tougher team in '13-14.

I think it's:
Miami
Chicago/Indiana/Nets all separated by no more than 3 games.
Knicks

Gonna be a fun year though.

_________________
MarkJohnson>You wrote:

Yeah, and if you're using the "He's 19" logic, then I guess the best report a scout could give us is:


"I have no idea. He's a teenager. He may go through 5 arm surgeries between now and his 30th birthday. He may add a pitch. He may lose a pitch. He may put on 30 lbs and add velocity. He may put on 50 lbs and eat his way out of the league. I literally have no idea what he is going to be."

But thats not what these guys are paid to do, nor what we are looking for them to do, right?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Knicks-Nets rivalry
PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 9:05 am 
User avatar
Offline
NYFS Staff

Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2006 4:55 pm
Posts: 10583
Location: and Changing Speeds
Quote:
This year I am buying it though. Not a Bargs fan at all and the way Lopez developed last year and the way Deron finished the year, with the additions of Garnett and Pierce I think they will be a much tougher team in '13-14.


Last year everyone wanted to hit the Knicks for how old their offseason acquisitions were, how old there team was, etc. even if it wasn't their main rotation guys that were so old. Garnett, Pierce, Terry, Johnson, Evans, Kirilenko are 6 of the Nets 8 top rotation guys and not a single one of them is under 32, and half of them are 36+.

Also, everyone remembers the knicks 2012/13 season fondly as the season where everything just went right, and that's why they won a team best in a decade 54 games and a playoff series.

But in reality, 5 of the 6 the Knicks top rotation guys (Carmelo, Chandler, Felton, Shumpert, Amare) ALL missed at least 15 games each due to injuries, and, while I acknowledge Amare would be lucky to miss only 15, they also only had K-Mart for 20 games, and went into the season looking for minutes from Camby, Wallace, Thomas that never materialized. Kidd never made a basket after March 1st. They had injury after injury down the stretch and the last week of the season were signing Earl Barron and Quentin Richardson to fill out the playoff roster, for petesake. Neither Melo or Chandler could lift an arm past their shoulder in the playoffs.

Despite that, they won 54 games.

They replaced Kidd, Copeland, Novak, Wallace, Thomas, Camby with Udrih, MWP, Bargnani, Tyler, Leslie, and Hardaway.

It's hard for me to imagine a scenario where somehow replacing Kidd, Novak, and Copeland in the rotation with Udrih, MWP and Bargnani doesn't make the Knicks a much better team.

It's hard to picture getting less production somehow out of Tyler, Hardaway and Leslie, than they got out of Rasheed Wallace, James White, and Marcus Camby.

It's hard to imagine not having a generally healthier overall season out of Melo, Felton, Chandler, Shumpert.

:shrug:

_________________
Become A Fan at ReverbNation: https://www.reverbnation.com/oddesseyband
Like Us On Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/oddesseyband
Follow Us On Twitter: https://twitter.com/oddesseyband
Follow Us On SoundCloud: https://soundcloud.com/oddesseyband


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Knicks-Nets rivalry
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:22 pm 
User avatar
Offline
Legend of NYFS

Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 2:57 pm
Posts: 80759
Location: New York, NY
The Knicks have 3 average NBA PG's (I mean that as a compliment). Ideally you have a stud but Felton/Priggy Smalls and Udrih should give them some quality minutes. I'm not a big believer in Hardaway but who exactly is he replacing? Tyler had a good summer league (yeah I know it's summer league) but he was a MASSIVE HS prospect with maturity issues. Leslie seems like a tweener but that' doesn't mean he can't help in a Hakim Warrick-esque capacity and Artest figures to be a nice help vs. the Miami/BK front lines (even if he's diminished). Shumpert will be healthier as well. Personally I think it's Miami clear #1, Chicago clear #2 (assuming Rose is healthy) then Indiana (until proven otherwise) and the Knicks and Nets fighting for the 4th best team in the East. The Knicks have been built to contend now, but with the ability to rebuild in 2 years (with tons of cap room) if it doesn't work out. Melo will get his shot to "build" is own team... LBJ baby!

_________________
Twit-@Wexlerrules
Staunch anti-BADP (Batting average dependent players)
Pronounced "Dar-No"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Knicks-Nets rivalry
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:10 pm 
User avatar
Offline
NYFS Staff

Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:37 am
Posts: 23308
Location: charleston, sc
This is a much stronger team, I think, and much deeper in talent. Like Ed said above, man for man they are better. They are also slightly younger.

The problem will be finding PT for everyone.

_________________
"The most potent weapon of the oppressor is the mind of the oppressed." Steven Biko


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Knicks-Nets rivalry
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:02 pm 
User avatar
Offline
Legend of NYFS

Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:56 pm
Posts: 59186
MSG execs so enthused with the offseason moves so lauded in here that Glen Grunwald has been replaced.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Knicks-Nets rivalry
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:01 pm 
User avatar
Offline
Legend of NYFS

Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 2:57 pm
Posts: 80759
Location: New York, NY
MarkJohnson>You wrote:
MSG execs so enthused with the offseason moves so lauded in here that Glen Grunwald has been replaced.



Dolan firing his GM = the moves they made were poor? Interesting rationale there MJ lol Dolan isn't exactly Jerry West.

_________________
Twit-@Wexlerrules
Staunch anti-BADP (Batting average dependent players)
Pronounced "Dar-No"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Knicks-Nets rivalry
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:19 pm 
User avatar
Offline
Legend of NYFS

Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 3:37 am
Posts: 10098
MarkJohnson>You wrote:
MSG execs so enthused with the offseason moves so lauded in here that Glen Grunwald has been replaced.


Hope this is a joke post. This is Dolan being Dolan. Also apparently Mills has a good relationship with a lot of the players (was a favorite to be the head of the union) and so there's a hope he can get Lebron or another big star here.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Knicks-Nets rivalry
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 9:23 am 
User avatar
Offline
Legend of NYFS

Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:56 pm
Posts: 59186
Coutinho declares WAR on the Brooklyn Nets.

Rich Coutinho @coutinho9
The notion in town is NYK have holes but BN are a perfect team--Be careful BN--To me NYK are still at least ur equal and likely better

Rich Coutinho @coutinho9
@BrooklynSaint @SNYNets Lets be real clear here--Nets will always be #2--Case in point--they were #2 in Kidd years when they went to Finals

(OHH SCHNAPP!)

Rich Coutinho @coutinho9
people insisting Nets will finish higher than the Knicks are the same people who insisted Nats would finish higher than the Braves I think

(I think he fails to mention that people insisting Knicks will finish higher, at least in one instance, are the same "person" who predicted 16-0 for the Jets and a playoff berth for the Mets)

I have to say I really enjoy not having Coutinho on "my" side in this instance. Must be how Giants fans feel.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Knicks-Nets rivalry
PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 12:31 am 
User avatar
Offline
Franchise Player

Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 3:57 pm
Posts: 3623
Location: Shea
Knicks 1, Nets 0.

_________________
Run it up, Herman! Leave no doubt!
-Coach Yoast


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 66 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group


SUPPORT NYFS VIA OUR NETWORK OF SITES: FIND AN AA MEETING | FIND A JOB NEAR YOU | SUICIDE DEPRESSION ADDICTION HELP | BOOK REVIEWS EDITORIAL | LOCAL DOCTORS HOSPITAL EMERGENCY CARE | HOME REPAIR CONTRACTOR BUILDER AC HEAT | LOCAL LIVE MUSIC OPEN MIC JAM | FIND YOUR CONGRESSMAN AND WHERE TO VOTE | WOMEN VETERANS HELP SUPPORT AND RESOURCES | THE SOULCIALISTS LIVE LOCAL PIANO MUSIC TREASURE COAST | PET FRIENDLY PARKS HOTELS | SOLAR WIND RENEWABLE POWER | FILE TAX RETURN ATTORNEY | 4G SEO SMART PHONES TABLET WEB | BIRTHDAY PARTY RENTAL CHARACTERS | HOMES APARTMENTS FOR SALE OR RENT NEAR YOU | SPORT COURT GYM FITNESS CLUB TRACK FIELD | GOLF BEACH RESORT HOTELS RESTAURANTS BED BREAKFAST | HEALTH LIFE AUTO HOME INSURANCE QUOTE | METRO BUS TRAIN SUBWAY AIRPORT HELIPORT | VETERAN TIPS CRAFT DIY RECIPES | ATM BRANCH CONSOLIDATION STUDENT CREDIT LOAN RATES | LOCAL NEWS AND RSS FEEDS | CHRISTMAS BLACK FRIDAY BACK TO SCHOOL SALE | LATEST E NEWS ON MOVIES TV GAMES GIFTS BOOKS | LAST MINUTE ANNIVERSARY BIRTHDAY HOUSE WARMING GIFTS NEAR YOU | LOCAL ARTS CRAFTS SUPPLY STORE | LOCAL HEALTHY HEART DIABETIC RESTAURANTS AND STORES | CHURCH TEMPLE MOSQUE OR PLACE OF WORSHIP NEAR YOU | LOCAL LINKS TO RESTAURANTS AIRPORTS DRUG STORES | DRUG OXY OPIATE ALCOHOL PHYSICAL REHAB | SUICIDE HOTLINE DANIELLE COLBERT PHOTO MUG SHOT | © Untraditional Media

The%20Soulcialists