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 Post subject: Re: Manfred
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:25 pm 
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MarkJohnson>You wrote:
HeyNowHK wrote:
Imagine being a Mariners fan... they finally move up the chain and have a terrific 89 win season, and their reward for that is to hear that they intend to sell off some better pieces to do a soft re-tooling... Huh??

That should offend a lot of people around the game. I mean, maybe it was just overplayed by some in the media. But DiPoto didn't seem to go out of his way to deny the story. In fact, it's been more or less confirmed as we hear them talking about Paxton. How is that going to help them in 2019?

How could a team like the M's already seeming to concede that they can't win their division or even a WC not offend people in the game, especially their own fans..?


But so whats the fix? A cap? Do you think Manfred gets celebrated long term by limiting player salaries and putting money back in owner's pockets?

I think there's some degree of reality here: being a fan of a small market team comes with the reality that part of the fandom is the ride, and not expecting a championship on a regular basis. Thats somewhat true in a lot of leagues in different sports even globally, right? I have friends who are HUGE EPL fans and thats a league where literally, what, 5 clubs have any shot at ever winnings other than a crazy Leicester City situation, but thats sort of part of the fandom?

I mean, lets be fair: we're all here. Are we Met fans due to the belief that someday soon the Mets will be an MLB dynasty? If you are, may be time for a little think straight/talk straight moment.

Um, shouldn't there be some space between dynasty and selling off aces at 89 wins?

What's the fix? I mean... just asking such a rhetorical question seems like way too much resignation for and acceptance of the present state of dysfunction. Pretty sure you'd (and everyone else here) be up in arms if that was the Mets taking offers on Paxton after winning 89 games.

Fix for it? For openers, maybe some sort of realignment that keeps more teams in post-season proximity... maybe even increasing or changing the playoff system altogether. People have criticized the NHL for years about a 'watered down' playoffs but it seems to keep most teams relevant for most of the season.

I don't know if some minimum team salary is in order, but I'd be open to look into that. Maybe something like loss of draft picks for consecutive seasons with salary under a certain level..? Maybe finally explore the possibility of trading draft picks and what sort of effect that might have on tanking.

The economic incentives seem to be too high to preclude teams from tanking. One would think intuitively just the opposite. Make it more onerous to be non-competitive. That shouldn't be that hard to institute.


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 Post subject: Re: Manfred
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:27 pm 
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One of the fixes to spur on teams competing should be a salary cap along with a salary floor.


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 Post subject: Re: Manfred
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:39 pm 
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HeyNowHK wrote:
I don't know if some minimum team salary is in order, but I'd be open to look into that. Maybe something like loss of draft picks for consecutive seasons with salary under a certain level..? Maybe finally explore the possibility of trading draft picks and what sort of effect that might have on tanking.

The economic incentives seem to be too high to preclude teams from tanking. One would think intuitively just the opposite. Make it more onerous to be non-competitive. That shouldn't be that hard to institute.


Again, not an NBA guy, but this is a recycled NBA idea, and it hasn't precluded tanking, its just made bad teams willing to take on awful contracts and either eat them or have guys sit on the bench to meet the minimum levels (and usually attach draft picks to taking on those salaries). Its mostly a way that good teams stay good - they get to just unload their unwanted contracts on the teams that know they won't compete anyway and give a pick as compensation, so they can turn around and spend again.

Its actually been a way for Sean Marks to accumulate some draft capital, so he's making good use of it, but it hasn't translated to the Nets being any better on the court.

Do we want the Yankees to dump Ellsbury's contract on the Rays along with a draft pick and int'l bonus pool $$ so they can go grab Harper?


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 Post subject: Re: Manfred
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:59 pm 
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MarkJohnson>You wrote:
HeyNowHK wrote:
I don't know if some minimum team salary is in order, but I'd be open to look into that. Maybe something like loss of draft picks for consecutive seasons with salary under a certain level..? Maybe finally explore the possibility of trading draft picks and what sort of effect that might have on tanking.

The economic incentives seem to be too high to preclude teams from tanking. One would think intuitively just the opposite. Make it more onerous to be non-competitive. That shouldn't be that hard to institute.


Again, not an NBA guy, but this is a recycled NBA idea, and it hasn't precluded tanking, its just made bad teams willing to take on awful contracts and either eat them or have guys sit on the bench to meet the minimum levels (and usually attach draft picks to taking on those salaries). Its mostly a way that good teams stay good - they get to just unload their unwanted contracts on the teams that know they won't compete anyway and give a pick as compensation, so they can turn around and spend again.

Do we want the Yankees to dump Ellsbury's contract on the Rays along with a draft pick and int'l bonus pool $$ so they can go grab Harper?

First, broadly speaking the NBA seems to be doing pretty well... I mean, in some ways it seems more vibrant vs staid MLB. Go to any game, and you're looking at packed or near packed arenas. Average league attendance seems to be around 90%. MLB seems closer to 70%. Yes I knw there are twice as many games and bigger stadiums. But gross MLB attendance is dropping while I believe NBA attendance is increasing.

In any case, that's only 1 data point. As to your point, I don't know if the example is good or bad. But it seems like an extreme resolution of the issue. There are always unintended consequences of new policies. But I'd be open to any policy that would address the issue of non-competitiveness in the game.


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 Post subject: Re: Manfred
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:18 am 
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What’s a packed NBA house? What was the Mets avg home attendance? I’m not sure if either but I don’t think it’s much different.


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 Post subject: Re: Manfred
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:21 am 
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Found it. 17500 for NBA, over 28000 for also ran Mets


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 Post subject: Re: Manfred
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:05 am 
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The problem with MLB is that Mike Trout can walk down Main Street in any town in America and almost nobody would recognize him.


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 Post subject: Re: Manfred
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:13 am 
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ghoti. wrote:
The problem with MLB is that Mike Trout can walk down Main Street in any town in America and almost nobody would recognize him.


This is just as much Arte Moreno's fault as anything else. America hasn't had an opportunity to watch Trout play.

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Baseball has a way of ripping your ❤️ out, stabbing it, putting it back in your chest, then healing itself just in time for Spring Training. - Thor


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 Post subject: Re: Manfred
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:51 am 
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northway wrote:
ghoti. wrote:
The problem with MLB is that Mike Trout can walk down Main Street in any town in America and almost nobody would recognize him.


This is just as much Arte Moreno's fault as anything else. America hasn't had an opportunity to watch Trout play.


It's not just Trout. Look at the rosters of last year's All-Star game and ask yourself how many of them an average person would recognize.

Ask a casual sports fan what team Nolan Arenado plays for.

MLB hasn't evolved. They still believe sports fans root primarily for laundry. That isn't the case. Even those who have favorite teams root for players now. A Bears fan under 30 sees nothing unusual or wrong about being an Aaron Rodgers fan. Many people feel as much of a connection to the players on their fantasy team as their hometown team. Baseball has done the worst job of adjusting to this.

If you want to succeed with the younger demographic, you have to market not just the mega-stars, but make stars out of the good players, too. Yes, LeBron has tons of fans, but that doesn't help sell tickets to a Suns-Blazers game in November. You have to make Devin Booker and Damian Lillard household names with distinct personalities so people are interested.

Baseball used to be great at that. Now they are hopelessly behind. There have been some signs things are changing, like the "unwritten rules" commercial they ran during the playoffs. But they need to adapt much faster if they want to keep the gravy train rolling.


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 Post subject: Re: Manfred
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:49 am 
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Wow. I am of a completely different generation


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 Post subject: Re: Manfred
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:10 pm 
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ghoti. wrote:
northway wrote:
ghoti. wrote:
The problem with MLB is that Mike Trout can walk down Main Street in any town in America and almost nobody would recognize him.


This is just as much Arte Moreno's fault as anything else. America hasn't had an opportunity to watch Trout play.


It's not just Trout. Look at the rosters of last year's All-Star game and ask yourself how many of them an average person would recognize.

Ask a casual sports fan what team Nolan Arenado plays for.

MLB hasn't evolved. They still believe sports fans root primarily for laundry. That isn't the case. Even those who have favorite teams root for players now. A Bears fan under 30 sees nothing unusual or wrong about being an Aaron Rodgers fan. Many people feel as much of a connection to the players on their fantasy team as their hometown team. Baseball has done the worst job of adjusting to this.

If you want to succeed with the younger demographic, you have to market not just the mega-stars, but make stars out of the good players, too. Yes, LeBron has tons of fans, but that doesn't help sell tickets to a Suns-Blazers game in November. You have to make Devin Booker and Damian Lillard household names with distinct personalities so people are interested.

Baseball used to be great at that. Now they are hopelessly behind. There have been some signs things are changing, like the "unwritten rules" commercial they ran during the playoffs. But they need to adapt much faster if they want to keep the gravy train rolling.


I think you hit the nail on the head here.


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 Post subject: Re: Manfred
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:47 pm 
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Baseball is less a star-driven sport than the NBA. In the NBA, the top 3 or 4 stars are going to be in the NBA finals or at least semis every year. In MLB, Trout can be the best player of his generation and never make the playoffs, so he may never become a national sensation. Baseball is not about one player; never has been. And so I'm not sure that marketing its stars is the answer.


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